Won't start!

[H. L. Chauvin]

FWIW: Just one (1) opinion shared often.

"Won't Start" used to be simple years ago before diagnostic devices when vintage mechanics taught to bypass all of the multiple "guesses" and to go directly in a straight line from the source to where it really counts ... "only" the Combustion Chamber.

1. With the Model A ignition switch off, choke carburetor, rotate engine, immediately remove all (4) plugs and observe and/or smell plugs ...... plugs wet, usually no fuel problem .... plugs dry, fuel problem hence, start at the source, the fuel tank, and follow the "simple" and correct "wet" trail from the tank to the plugs in the "COMBUSTION CHAMBER".

2. Next, leave plugs out, ground plugs on sides, with ignition switch on, rotate engine and look for spark at plugs ..... all (4) plugs fire, usually no spark problem .... plugs do not fire, electrical problem; hence, again, start at the source, the battery, and with a multi-meter or test lamp follow the "simple" electrical trail from the battery to the spark plugs in the "COMBUSTION CHAMBER".

4. After "Fishing" around all over and changing out 39 new condensers, 47 new sets of points, 100 miles of electrical wire, 29 new coils, 16 new plugs, 32 ammeters, and having everybody in the neighborhood looking at the lights on in one's shop every night ...... maybe try (1) & (2) above ..... it is only a "simple" dry trail and a "simple" wet trail from the sources at point A and "only" where it really counts in the "COMBUSTION CHAMBER".

5. Five-hundred- and twenty-four (524) years ago Christopher Columbus knew to go in a straight line from point A to point B .......... he never left his sextant and compass at home .... he charted his source and his continuous trail forward, and even though this was his first rodeo, he never wandered in circles for weeks asking the all the "Fish" for opinions on how to get to America. So simple.

 

[hale1776]

Run a Jumper cable from positive side of battery to the body of the distributor once you do this it will either start or you can cross off "bad ground" off the list. More than one person has said "How could the engine block not be grounded?"

 

[JBill]

You don't mention that you've changed condensers. I wouldn't do it Chauvin's 39 times (!), but at least once. Most times when mine won't start that's been the problem

 

[Terry NJ]

Henry, I haven't had to deal with a "no start" problem in a car in 30-40 years (Except lawn mowers, tractors, etc)and I'm trying to recall what I did then. I never had an ignition system like this (Strange!). Plus HF was actually building the first anti theft ignition system. You can't tap into it! It's a closed system all the way from the instrument panel to the distributor. and it ain't easy to get into. Maybe I should take an old Dist. body and drill some access ports into it so I can jump the iggy switch. Or better still, I'll just put a wire with an alligator clip through the body and just switch caps whenever I need to do some trouble shooting. I don't know! Now I'm sure the idea *** product will show up in some vendors catalog! I can see it now! "Be the first on your block, the new Dia-cap allows you to bypass Fords attempt to close the system, only $69.95. Plus tax and shipping."
One of my favorite tricks to diagnose a gas from an ignition program is to use a simple squirt of starter fluid. If it starts on S F it's a Gas problem , If it doesn't start it's an ignition problem. I've got an ignition problem! I'm thinking of jumping the amp gauge. It's about the only thing I haven't changed. And one "survivor" parts from the car's 8V period. I believe that 8V batteries are not so benign as we are told. This was the beginning of all my electrical problems.
Terry

FWIW: Just one (1) opinion shared often.

"Won't Start" used to be simple years ago before diagnostic devices when vintage mechanics taught to bypass all of the multiple "guesses" and to go directly in a straight line from the source to where it really counts ... "only" the Combustion Chamber.

1. With the Model A ignition switch off, choke carburetor, rotate engine, immediately remove all (4) plugs and observe and/or smell plugs ...... plugs wet, usually no fuel problem .... plugs dry, fuel problem hence, start at the source, the fuel tank, and follow the "simple" and correct "wet" trail from the tank to the plugs in the "COMBUSTION CHAMBER".

2. Next, leave plugs out, ground plugs on sides, with ignition switch on, rotate engine and look for spark at plugs ..... all (4) plugs fire, usually no spark problem .... plugs do not fire, electrical problem; hence, again, start at the source, the battery, and with a multi-meter or test lamp follow the "simple" electrical trail from the battery to the spark plugs in the "COMBUSTION CHAMBER".

4. After "Fishing" around all over and changing out 39 new condensers, 47 new sets of points, 100 miles of electrical wire, 29 new coils, 16 new plugs, 32 ammeters, and having everybody in the neighborhood looking at the lights on in one's shop every night ...... maybe try (1) & (2) above ..... it is only a "simple" dry trail and a "simple" wet trail from the sources at point A and "only" where it really counts in the "COMBUSTION CHAMBER".

5. Five-hundred- and twenty-four (524) years ago Christopher Columbus knew to go in a straight line from point A to point B .......... he never left his sextant and compass at home .... he charted his source and his continuous trail forward, and even though this was his first rodeo, he never wandered in circles for weeks asking the all the "Fish" for opinions on how to get to America. So simple.

 

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Terry,

Just one (1) "simple" example of many experiences:

Years ago, guy called me from 70 miles away because his lawn mower would not start after a whole week of tinkering. Like many, he panicked, got confused and tried everything.

Told him to try above 1. & 2. He said he did and had fuel and spark and it will not start. Asked how did he test spark ...... Oh! removed spark plug wire and saw big spark between wire and plug ....... told him who cares about spark jumping from wire to plug ...... "REMOVE PLUG" .... he next removed the plug ..... no spark.

He had an old plug, cleaned it and it started.

Fuel & spark has to happen "IN" the combustion chamber ....... spark at coil wire does not detect a malfunctioning distributor body ...... fuel in fuel line at carburetor fitting does not detect a leaking intake manifold gasket.

It happens often on Forums, try this ...... try that; however, "especially" after "panicking", when "nothing" seems to get it started, if one does not test the "Combustion Chamber" where it really counts, it is like one is going multiple times between a Dentist's Office and a Neurologist's Office because his hemorrhoids are bothering him.

Just hope this helps some Model A owner in the future to be able to comfortably sit down.

 

[Patrick L.]

I still don't see where you have checked for voltage at the movable [ and open] points arm. Either the meter or light will work for this.

You said that holding the secondary coil wire thing didn't produce a spark. Next is checking for voltage at the open point arm. This isn't going to be hard to fix. It just needs to be done in some sense of order. Once we know whether there is or isn't power at the points we'll know what to do next.

It can be hard to diagnose and fix something on a forum such as this, but, we'll get it figured out.

 

[Tom Wesenberg]

If the horn blows or the headlamps work, then the ammeter is fine. At least it's fine for the moment and is passing current.

 

[H. L. Chauvin]

So very simple.

1. Follow the Model A "wet" fuel trail, source to final destination, & investigate, and/or ask questions about "why" the first "dry" spot.

2. Follow the Model A electrical trail, (wiring diagram), source to final destination, and investigate, and/or ask about "why" the first "no" spark spot.

3. Millions of plumbers learn this so quickly; i.e., to follow a simple wet trail from the source to the final destination for water supply and sewage disposal.

4. Similarly, both fuel and electrical current flow like water in a pipe from a mapped source to a final destination; however, for some unknown reason, some in the Mechanic's Field never learn what plumbers learned ..... so, they first throw their maps away, open their hoods, and bounce all over fuel and electrical checks and then wonder why their brains have turned into scrambled eggs.

 

[Mitch//pa]

It's already made

 

[Terry NJ]

Tom, That puts finger on this problem! "Fine for the moment"! Intermittent is the name of this problem. And for the time being, neither the horn or lights work with a fully charged battery. So, is it the amp gauge? Summpthin,s not letting current through. And.... It's a brandy new Ignition switch, The $50 special! I'm about to tear the insturment panel off again and poke around with the meter.
Terry

If the horn blows or the headlamps work, then the ammeter is fine. At least it's fine for the moment and is passing current.

 

[Tom Wesenberg]

Turn on the headlights so you are trying to draw current, then use a test light or volt meter to see where you loose the voltage. Use a jumper wire across the two terminal box wing nuts to see if that fixes the problem. Remember that the terminals on the studs under the cover must be clean and tight.

 

[Bob C]

Tom, That puts finger on this problem! "Fine for the moment"! Intermittent is the name of this problem. And for the time being, neither the horn or lights work with a fully charged battery. So, is it the amp gauge? Summpthin,s not letting current through. And.... It's a brandy new Ignition switch, The $50 special! I'm about to tear the insturment panel off again and poke around with the meter.
Terry

The ignition switch has nothing to do with the lights, horn or starter.

Bob

 

[Terry NJ]

Tom! Some success! I jumped the two connection box studs and I had lights (Horn clicked but didn't sound) The stud on the right (Passenger side) read 6V and the one one the left was dead (Without the jumper) So, What does it mean? I can speculate that the connections on the right stud are connected before the the ammeter and the connections on the left are dependent on the current coming through the ammeter and for some reason, the current isn't getting through? It's worth telling that the ammeter is a Chinese replacement and not original.
Terry

This Puter is a MAC and they try to outthink you and they can't. I'm always editing something that this machine has "Corrected".

 

[Mitch//pa]

Tom, I cleaned the points with a file and checked the closed points with the ohm meter- good continuity! But I will try your test. Something seems to be making an intermittent contact.
Terry

Power feeds into the junction box on the r/s, goes through the ammeter then out the l/s. Ck your junction box connections inside the cover as well as the back of the ammeter.. I believe your close.. If you have 6v on both ammeter terminals the issue is the l/s junction connection.
When you jump accross the junction box your eliminating the ammeter and the internal connections...
The l/s of the junction box also feeds power to the coil along with the lights and horn

 

[Terry NJ]

I hate to keep beating this to death, but.... I came home just now and had a bright idea! I would jump the two studs with a cliplead and be able to start it. It worked! Engine stated, ran about 15 seconds, and quit , again and again. The Coil wire kept falling out of the coil. Or maybe just because it is so cold here. But I feel I'm on the right track. I will change the ammeter and the coil.
Terry

 

[Tom Wesenberg]

I would NOT change a thing until you are sure all the connections are clean and tight. If the coil wire falls out, then the brass clip needs to be bent or changed, and it should be soldered to the wire.

 

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Terry,

FWIW: Numbers of past experiences, (if all were listed herein) could run in the billions ........ don't ever be surprised; and we should always have sympathy for Model A owners fighting difficult to find problems.

Rare won't start problem.

Knew guy who had intermittent engine running on a Model A he just bought where the coil wire kept falling out.

After tinkering for a month, he removed the coil, turned it upside down and found part of a modern carbon core wire stuck in the opening .......... he removed it, re-installed the metal coil wire & his troubles were over ...... sitting miles away makes it difficult to guess at problems one cannot "see".

Something tells me Terry, you will educate us all with your newly found solution.

 

[Mitch//pa]

What Tom said,,,, parts changing makes things worse.... You can easily check things with a 2.00 testlight. If you have power at both ammeter terminals it's good.. Since you said already that you only have power at the r/s terminal box wing nut and not the l/s you need to Ck the connections what I posted above. Have you done any of the checks that were mentioned?

 

[H. L. Chauvin]

Per Mr. Tom W's above no. 36, about 15 years ago a guy emailed me with "no start" .... told him to "try" to clean "all" electrical connections from battery to points and clean points with a "points" file, because car had been sitting idle for about 1-1/2 years.

He did just that.

With no faith in my "suggestion", he had his Model A towed to and back from a nearby town 50 miles away, had an unknown "modern" mechanic clean all of his wire connections for a total + towing of $600.00.

He did report back that one (1) corroded wire was found in the junction box .... and that next time he will clean his own wire connections.

 

[jfreddie]

If your coil wire is a modern style graphite, non metallic core, it can go bad and not let spark through. Try putting in an original metallic wire and see if that doesn't cure it before changing coils.