MAFCA & MARC Poll

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

better:
1) cost savings by not having two headquarters
i addressed that above ...and i honestly do not believe that is enough savings to warrant consideration. We all know how customer service has been virtually eliminated in america due to corporate downsizing to the point where it is pitiful.
2) simplicity... Less confusion among potential members "which do i join?"
i was truthfully looking for factual or prove-able reasons. Is 'simplicity' really a problem hindering new membership because someone doesn't know which club to join? Would this really be a valid top-five reason to go through the motions to merge two clubs?
3) opportunity to develop a really nationwide club with events held "all" over the country.
we already have a "really nationwide" club with events held all of the country. Choose either club and look at their chapters. There are multiple chapters in every state of the union, --and when you look at their events scheduled, you could make a full-time career just roaming the countryside attending each of their doings. If you do not have a local chapter, that is your fault! Get with bob lancaster and a few of y'all buddies, and have either club forward you the by-laws and all the information you will need to form your own.
4) less bad publicity from one "upmanship" efforts by one club or the other
again, where is the "bad publicity" you mention? If 'egos' is something you feel can be avoided by merging to one club, then is it possible you will be disappointed during, --and after the merge has transpired??!!
5) the positive effects of everyone working together to further the hobby instead of trying to prove "our" club is better.
therein may be part of the problem. There is a saying that "in a club, 20% of the members do 80% of the work!". Getting everyone to work together would be a difficult task based on my perspective whether it be in two clubs or one. I would accept this as a "valid reason" for a merge if you can prove to me and others that in one club everyone would work together.



current problems necessitating the need for a merge:
1) egos
ok, but would there be no egos in the newly formed club?
2) living in the past
hmmm, ...funny how we are seemingly trying to preserve the past by restoring model a's, and thus we dress up in clothes from the past, and we go to antique stores, drive on old 2 lane roads, and basically try to re-live the past. I do agree with you that there are areas where we could take advantage of modern technology to advance the club(s) however a merge would not ensure this happening, and this could currently be implimented within either club without a merge.
3) some real estate would need to be sold... And the market sucks right now.
why would real estate need to be sold? Many corporations find they need to have offices in multiple cities when they are trying to service the entire country. Btw, how many paid staff positions do you feel could be eliminated by a merge?
4) old grudges
i direct you to my thoughts under #1 above.
5) we have always done it this way....at least since 1957
who have you spoken with that makes this a factual statement?

while i agree that some things we do have been done for quite awhile, is that necessarily a bad thing? Could i not apply that same logic to a certain document that america adopted back 1776 and say we need to change it because that is they way it has always been done and we need to have new rules?

BTW, if we were to have one club with a Western, a Central, and a Eastern 'Division', (your word!!) that word would likely describe exactly what you just said we would be trying to eliminate by merging the two clubs.

What keeps the Eastern Division trying to 'out-do' the Western Division on hosting a Meet, ...or what keeps the Western Div. from feeling like their fine-point judging is more accurate than the other two divisions? What keeps people from the Central Division from saying that the other divisions get more assistance from Heaquarters and we are stuck in the middle of the country just like the middle child? If any of that happened, it would seem we are back to square one!! Just my perspective though!!

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[MCHinson]

Ken, As I posted on here a few days ago, I was planning to attend the Williamsburg Meet but work ended up preventing it. I recently retired and hope to be able to attend some MAFCA and/or MARC national events, but have not had that opportunity yet. Perhaps I can make it to St. Augustine, but that is still not exactly local for me.

I do find it interesting that approximately 2/3 of the poll respondents voted in favor of a merger, but this thread is turning into basically you and Brent advocating the status quo and me debating the merits of studying the potential for a merger.

Luckily for me AACA has had multiple meets and tours in North Carolina in the past several years. AACA has similar events all over the US reguarly. AACA membership is not as large on the West Coast, but is actively trying to expand there as well.

It seems strange to me that with two National Model A Clubs, I can't remember one National Tour or Meet in North Carolina.... perhaps I have missed them... and yet there have been Multiple AACA National Tours and AACA National Meets right here in North Carolina in the past two years.

I don't mean to argue, but I do think that there is room for improvement. I have struggled to get local Model A Owners to form an organized local club. Most of them are content to be a loosely organized group of friends touring together or else they are happy with the local AACA Chapter. A couple of us still hope for an organized Model A Club here to supplement our local AACA Chapter.

From my vantage point here in Southeastern North Carolina, it looks like there could be something better than the status quo. What is it about the two national Model A Clubs makes it so that I can't find 5 of the 40 local guys who own Model A's who are members of either club?

So, how about the original question...

How can MARC and MAFCA improve the hobby?

 

[Ken Ehrenhofer]

I am sorry to hear you could not make it to Williamsburg it was great event. I am also sorry to hear you cannot put 5 guys/ gals togehther to form a MARC or MAFCA Chapter /region. This is sad for the area near you. The meets on a National level are run by the local region or chapter and without a local region or chapter there will not be any meets in your area. That is why you must drive some distance to a meet. From a National level they try to scatter the meets in different areas so everyone in the country can have a chance to attend. Unfortunately it depends on local regions coming forward and volunteering to host a national Membership Meet or a National Meet. This is not an easy task as most of our membership is getting older. The club is finding that it takes several regions to come together to host a meet now so they can have more volunteers to do all the work. It is easy to say why don't we make it better but it takes regions and people to do it. Your area must not even have a region. Part of the Model A Fun has been to be able to get to travel to all these other areas ot the country and to be entertained by the host region. What a wonderful thing to do. Your question posed is a most important one to our hobby and one that I have struggled with as a Board member for MARC.
How do we improve MARC/MAFCA and the Model A Hobby?
Wow, that could be a long discussion and if anyone has any good ideas we have a Board of directors that want to hear them. Please let them know and give them any suggestions you have.
I hope you realize this discussion was intended to improve the hobby and not hurt it in any way.
Thanks,
I hope to see you in St Augustine???
Ken

 

[Bob Johnson]

Both MARC and MAFCA publish brief financial reports every year in their magazines. I have looked at the latest and the magazines use aprox 1/3 of the revenues. The commercial ads in the magazines account for less than 20% of the cost of the magazines. The biggest expense is the Administration/National office which is over 50% of the budget.

Bob

 

[Bob Johnson]

What I was trying to say is that the Commercial ads pay for 20% of the cost of producing the magazines.


Bob

 

[Steve Rinaldo]

Yes there is not much difference in the 2 clubs. Then there may be more diverse locations for the events and maybe more tours not just the shows. Cars are made to be driven. If you want somethung to look at go to the movies.Steve

 

[FL&WVMIKE]

I don't know how many people, out there, are like me. I have owned my Model "A" since 1961 and have never joined either club. I did not know which one was best, so I just didn't bother.
If there was just one club, I surely would join.
I belong to The Early V8 Ford Club, and am a strong supporter. Fortunately, there is only one V8 club !
How many people think it would be better for the V8 guys, if there were two clubs that bickered with each other ?
MIKE

 

[Purdy Swoft]

YES! What we will get is a bigger, more interesting magazine, a long awaited museum, better touring class judging and less politics. Just look at the V8 club, the CCCA, THE AACA, and other "one club" organizations. The only thing we will loose is a few power hungry national board members. This current 2 club thing just dilutes our purpose. "THE MODEL A CLUB" will make the future better for all Model A Ford enthusiasts. Anything is possible. Lets do it.
Glenn Johnson
in Camino

How will this get rid of the power hungry board members or insure that more of the same doesn't follow???

 

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Bob, if you would, e-mail me a copy of each of those F/Rs please.

OK if you were to figure that 50% of club revenue is spent on Salaries, if the two clubs were merged, would the salary costs be reduced or would it still take the same amount of 'labor' to service the entire merged membership?


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[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Both MARC and MAFCA publish brief financial reports every year in their magazines. I have looked at the latest and the magazines use aprox 1/3 of the revenues. The commercial ads in the magazines account for less than 20% of the cost of the magazines. The biggest expense is the Administration/National office which is over 50% of the budget.

Bob

Bob, I don't know where you came up with percentages but the TOTAL cost of operating the club is is running about 15½% under receivables. That means salaries, overhead, magazine, everything is about 15% under which in other words means someone is doing a good job keeping track of expenses & spending. Now from what I see, the magazine is costing about about 10% more than what the costs of running the Nat'l office is.

And about the advertisments, I do not know where that 20% number came from but it does appear it costs about $25K to publish each magazine (labor, print postage, etc.). I did run a brief count on com ads and what they would cost if they are yearly ads and it did come in at around 25%+ of gross.

I guess we have about beat this ole nag to death!!

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[MCHinson]

cost of operating the club

.​

I realize I should stay out of this, but I find it strange that you talk about "the club", when the entire discussion was about two clubs, MAFCA and MARC.

I presume you are talking about MARC, as that is the club whose magazine you advertise in. I have not previously questioned anything about the financial side of this question and I have not examined the financial statements.

I do however note that I pay less for AACA than I do for MARC or MAFCA. My analysis shows that AACA has more events over a greater geographical area each year. AACA has a larger magazine (with as good or better quality than either of the other two club's magazines in my opinion). AACA has a museum. AACA has a Library/Research center which provides limited free reseach to members each year. From my point of view, maybe MARC and MAFCA should be studying the original question that got this whole discussion started;

"How can MAFCA and MARC improve the Hobby?"

 

[Don/WI]

I agree 110% Ken with both of your last two posts.


As I view the logistics of a possible merge, I am still baffled at what could be gained. I read where many say they would want to have a monthly magazine if they merged. That's a cool idea but wouldn't the costs to do that double over what we are presently spending on the magazine? Therefore instead of paying $40 annually for dues, ...it goes to $75 a year dues? THAT will cause some heartburn for many potential & present members who only choose to be members of one club!!

Some say we would only need ½ the paid staff positions to run the office if we had a merge but realistically, it takes what personnel both clubs currently employ to properly serve their members, ...and so while the merge may drop some people who are dual members, that personnel cost would likely only drop only by a small proportion too?? So we are back to the same basic costs and again, the new annual national club dues of $75.00 (+) for each member. If any present members drop out due to the fee increase, then what have we gained?

Now with regard to having a monthly magazine, the advertising which carries the Lion's share of the costs of a magazine (or at least a lot of the cost from what I am told) would not necessarily double expotentially so there would likely be some loss in revenue from advertising. I'm thinking it would still take the same amount of people to produce one monthly magazine as it currently takes to do both club's bi-monthly magazines, so is there really any cost savings in this area derived from a merge.

Since the B.o.D. positions nor the elected positions actual a paid position, we really would not save any costs there with a merge would we? If we amortized each of the Club's liability insurance, would the rate drop enough to be a savings worth noting? In other words, if it dropped by ¼ (because it is based on membership total and exposure), and the total amount of the premium is $10k annually (hypothetical numbers) it would drop by $2,500.00, which in a 10,000 member club would be a savings of about twenty five cents per member ( 25¢ )!!

I guess I could go on and view the negative aspects but when I heed his advice and look at the positives that would come from a merge, I feel things start looking pretty good as they are!!

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I agree with Brent and his assesment of there being very little if any advantages to the merging of MARC & MAFCA (but only to the extent of 100%). I feel like he does that some members would drop out if they had to pay dues of close to double what they pay now. I have belonged to MARC since 1966 and MAFCA since 1968. I think things are fine the way they are. Just my $0.02 worth. Don/WI

 

[Steve Plucker]

This whole Poll thread is proving very interesting.

Running very close in everyones thoughts and minds.

I don't think a merger will come any time soon.

Pluck

 

[Gary Karr]

I agree with Steve in that a merger won't come any time soon. What I am seeing here in Southern California is more and more chapters and regions becoming dual regions. I think that is great. It gives local Model A owners exposure to both national clubs. They can join one or both. Remember that in order to participate in either's national meets, you must be a current member of that national club.

 

[MCHinson]

Jeff,

You are correct, the "no" votes have been gaining ground, but as of right now, The majority, currently approximately 60% of the total, are still voting "yes".

 

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I do however note that I pay less for AACA than I do for MARC or MAFCA. My analysis shows that AACA has more events over a greater geographical area each year. AACA has a larger magazine (with as good or better quality than either of the other two club's magazines in my opinion). AACA has a museum. AACA has a Library/Research center which provides limited free reseach to members each year. From my point of view, maybe MARC and MAFCA should be studying the original question that got this whole discussion started;

Mat, I detect the tone is turning where this is a competition and I feel you are making assumptions about other's motives. To buy a commercial ad in a club magazine does not require that business owner to be a member of that club. What if the purpose of that business owner is to advertise to attract business from that magazine's readership demographics?

Again, you are posting comments about AACA's magazine (BTW, published in the same frequency as either Model A club's magazine!!) vs. the M.A.N./Restorer that many could argue as an untrue statement but nonetheless, you are being critical towards someone who does the best with what they have submitted and for the budget they have. You belittling these efforts really does nothing positive to make either club better since you really are not giving solutions other than criticism. Also, there are just as many Model A events happening around USA as there are AACA meets. The AACA Divisional meets are solely hosted by the local club. AACA National receives all entry fees and likely this form of revenue helps offset the annual dues. Something to consider is most AACA members like car shows and MARC/MAFCA members evidently do not.

You make reference to AACA L& R Center, and the Museum however you did not mention anything about the generous philanthropy from its membership that it took to accomplish this. I guess the real question is do you honestly feel you could get enough MARC/MAFCA Model A owners to make enough donations to raise $15 million dollars to build a museum? AACA struggled getting that amount and trust me when I say that there are some really deep-pocketed individuals in AACA that are huge supporters. There was a recent post here about is the Model A hobby a "Rich Mans" hobby. Look at the concensus!!

I will close by saying that while I feel your "analysis" (as you called it) is doubtful but I will give the benefit and say that maybe YOU are the very one that needs to take the proposal to both boards providing them factual statistical data on not only how it would be better for all involved but exactly how it should be implimented and what can be accomplished.


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[MCHinson]

Brent,
First, before you assign any sinister motives to me, please understand that the lack of tone of voice, visual clues and other non-verbal communication hints make it very easy to misunderstand anything that is posted on an on-line forum. This is why emoticons were created. I don’t tend to use emoticons much and do my best to use words carefully to communicate what I am intending to communicate. I still recognize the easy opportunity for misunderstanding and miscommunication in this communication method. If you are ever in my area, or I am ever in your area, I would be pleased to have the opportunity to sit down and have a nice conversation with you about the future of our shared beloved Model A hobby. If you are planning to be in Hershey, I would be happy to arrange, by private message, a chance to meet there.

I have been a member of MAFCA and AACA for the same amount of time. As I previously posted, I joined MARC much later. If I had heard of MARC at the same time that I was told about MAFCA and AACA by another Model A Owner, I would have been a member of all three clubs all along.

I have been more active in AACA because we have an active local AACA chapter and because there have been quite a few AACA National Tours and Meets here in North Carolina in the past few years.

I am simply a guy who recently retired and has more time to spend on the hobby and more time to hang out on the computer. I am not the guy who first suggested a MAFCA/MARC merger. I am simply one guy who thought that the majority of folks who responded “yes” to the poll are right. It probably also helped that I was hanging out inside yesterday all day on the computer as Hurricane Earl was trying to decide if he was going to come visit me in Wilmington or take the eventual turn to the north that he took.

If you look closely at what I posted, I never said anything critical about the folks who put in a lot of hard work to put any of the club magazines together. I did say “as good as or better” in describing Antique Automobile magazine because it too is an excellent magazine. All three clubs put out excellent bi-monthly magazines. There are similarities and there are differences, but each of the publications are anxiously awaited here in my house. All three get filed away in the garage when I am finished with them. I am not the guy who ridiculed the Cigar Box Story… I actually read that and enjoyed it as I am a great fan of anything about the Model A era. Someone else complained about the lack of a Model A Museum. I attempted to post some comparison data between the clubs to show that if we had one nationwide club, perhaps some of the things that others were complaining about might be able to be accomplished. I have no idea how many members MAFCA or MARC have. If I go through my back issues, I am sure I can find that data, but I have not taken the time to do so. I think that one larger club would be better than two smaller ones.

People are generally resistant to change. People normally like doing things the same way that they have always done them. That does not mean that change is always a bad thing. If I had been a very active member of MARC or MAFCA for years and had not been active in the other one, I would probably be opposed to the idea of a merger. In this case, I happen to think that if a study were conducted, and a reasonable, viable merger plan was put to the membership of both MARC and MAFCA, it would be approved. I think that this is a good idea. That does not mean that it will happen, or could easily happen. It just means that I think the idea has merit. I do not think you are a bad guy and I don’t think that I am a bad guy. I think that we just have a different opinion on this issue due to our own perspective of the issue.

I hope we get a chance to meet in the future. In any case, hopefully on this issue we can agree to disagree without being disagreeable. Take care.

 

[popcorn-guy]

The only thing that stays consistently the same is "change". I belong to both clubs and will be dropping one of them. The only two items that have kept me paying dues have been the classifieds and the excellent columns on repairs/q&a's about judging. The rest of it is strictly aimed at the social set, which really is not an area of interest for me. I understand those who enjoy the social networking and like "clubbing" and feel that both clubs serve that endeavor well.

I don't understand why it would cost twice the amount for dues for one club and why one would require a monthly newletter. Those who only belong to one club live with that currently. Those who belong to two clubs are paying dearly for the convenience of a "monthly" periodical or "twice the amount" already. I wish I could vote yes or no, but imho it's a mute question as it's not going to be decided on this forum by a long shot. It's interesting just the same.

 

[Mike V. Florida]

I belong to both clubs and will be dropping one of them. The only two items that have kept me paying dues have been the classifieds and the excellent columns on repairs/q&a's about judging.

I've asked about the differences between the two clubs and have asked for some details as to those differences but I have not read anything. The reason might be that the answer to my question has been lost in the 4 threads that are currently running having to do with this subject.

Popcorn Guy, Please private message me and let me know which one you are keeping and why. I don't want to stir things up even more with your answer posted for all to see.

I also like the extra insurance the club provides.