Another Steering Question - see Pictures p2
- Thread starter Pilotdave
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Pilotdave
Well-known member
Re: Another Steering Question
Carl - excellent idea!
All - I removed the pitman arm, drag link, tie rod and steering arms this afternoon. Pitman arm and steering arm balls are all noticeably worn. Just might be the source of the stiff steering! I also checked the 4 steering box settings and found them all in order.
I cannot observe any racking in either king pin. That said, I have things apart far enough to make replacing them a smallish job, so.......
If memory serves correctly (doubtful at my age and condition
), worn steering balls could contribute to the nasty FE shimmy that happened once while braking. Am I recalling correctly? Thanks!
Carl - excellent idea!
All - I removed the pitman arm, drag link, tie rod and steering arms this afternoon. Pitman arm and steering arm balls are all noticeably worn. Just might be the source of the stiff steering! I also checked the 4 steering box settings and found them all in order.
I cannot observe any racking in either king pin. That said, I have things apart far enough to make replacing them a smallish job, so.......
If memory serves correctly (doubtful at my age and condition
), worn steering balls could contribute to the nasty FE shimmy that happened once while braking. Am I recalling correctly? Thanks!
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Re: Another Steering Question
You should not be able to turn the wheel at all by pulling on the tire. This sounds dangerous to me. If you hit a bump the wheel could then jerk the steering whel out of your hand. This should not be able to happen. When you turn the wheel by pulling on the tire, does the sterring wheel turn? If it does not and you can turn the wheel by pulling on the tire, there is a poor conection of the geears in the sterring box. This to is dangerous.
You should not be able to turn the wheel at all by pulling on the tire. This sounds dangerous to me. If you hit a bump the wheel could then jerk the steering whel out of your hand. This should not be able to happen. When you turn the wheel by pulling on the tire, does the sterring wheel turn? If it does not and you can turn the wheel by pulling on the tire, there is a poor conection of the geears in the sterring box. This to is dangerous.
Pilotdave
Well-known member
Re: Another Steering Question
rtruax, yes - steering wheel turns when I pull on the tires. Keep in mind that the front tires were off the floor when I was doing this. I think it's fine, but am open to hearing that it's not. At this point both wheels are disassembled to a bare axle, so no further testing is possible at the moment.
rtruax, yes - steering wheel turns when I pull on the tires. Keep in mind that the front tires were off the floor when I was doing this. I think it's fine, but am open to hearing that it's not.
At this point both wheels are disassembled to a bare axle, so no further testing is possible at the moment.
CWPASADENA
Well-known member
Re: Another Steering Question
Yes, I would do a good adjustment of the steering box, per Les Andrews instructions. With some difficulity and a lot of patience, this can be done in the car with the front wheels off the ground. It is worth a try before completely removing the steering box. However, you may ultimately have to get into the steering box itself.
My opinion, CW
I'm still interested in ideas about the results reported above and reproduced here: "With wheels off the floor and centered said:
Yes, I would do a good adjustment of the steering box, per Les Andrews instructions. With some difficulity and a lot of patience, this can be done in the car with the front wheels off the ground. It is worth a try before completely removing the steering box. However, you may ultimately have to get into the steering box itself.
My opinion, CW
CWPASADENA
Well-known member
Re: Another Steering Question
?????
With the wheels off the ground, try turning the steering gear on a '35 or later ford, or any car with a more modern roller sector steering gear, by pulling on the front tire. They all turn by pulling on the front tires unless something is wrong.
CW
?????
With the wheels off the ground, try turning the steering gear on a '35 or later ford, or any car with a more modern roller sector steering gear, by pulling on the front tire. They all turn by pulling on the front tires unless something is wrong.
CW
Re: Another Steering Question
I understand your question! I too was/am able to turn the wheels one way but not the other by grasping the tires with them off the ground. Simply put: With a steering design such as this, it should be difficult - if not impossible - to turn the wheels in either direction by using the tires (or pitman arm for that matter). The sector teeth will simply push against the worm gear teeth and stop. The design prevents movement/rotation of the steering column shaft. So rest easy, as I do not believe there is anything wrong. If the column shaft does rotate in this manner, then I would chalk it up to "loose & lubricated". It does sound as though an overhaul would be a good idea though. I just did mine last weekend. I used a new sector and housing with needle bearings. Performed the adjustements, filled with 600w, installed the shorter pitman arm, and it's like a new car....very pleased with the results.
I understand your question! I too was/am able to turn the wheels one way but not the other by grasping the tires with them off the ground. Simply put: With a steering design such as this, it should be difficult - if not impossible - to turn the wheels in either direction by using the tires (or pitman arm for that matter). The sector teeth will simply push against the worm gear teeth and stop. The design prevents movement/rotation of the steering column shaft. So rest easy, as I do not believe there is anything wrong. If the column shaft does rotate in this manner, then I would chalk it up to "loose & lubricated"
. It does sound as though an overhaul would be a good idea though. I just did mine last weekend. I used a new sector and housing with needle bearings. Performed the adjustements, filled with 600w, installed the shorter pitman arm, and it's like a new car....very pleased with the results.
Pilotdave
Well-known member
Re: Another Steering Question
I will need to investigate further the ability to turn the wheels. May have to rebuild that box....in the meantime, I will focus on replacing the worn pitman and steering arms.
Here are pictures of the steering balls. First is the two steering arms. Second is the pitman arm.
I will need to investigate further the ability to turn the wheels. May have to rebuild that box....in the meantime, I will focus on replacing the worn pitman and steering arms.
Here are pictures of the steering balls. First is the two steering arms. Second is the pitman arm.
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jkeesey
Well-known member
Very rarely have I come in contact with an old ford that can not have the wheels turned with the front end suspended. When they are stiff its usually a surprise and I question them even more. I have never had a single problem with a "loose" steering box making the front end turn on you or wander. As lonng as your toe is set properly it will drive great.
Pilotdave
Well-known member
I don't have a good benchmark to measure against, and I haven't taken any measurements yet, but the balls look worse "in person" than they do in the pictures. All three have a definite ovoid shape - not quite in the egg-shape category, but getting there. All getting replaced. And I do plan to use the shorter pitman arm. Will be interesting to see how it steers with both new balls and the shorter arm. Our Tudor has the standard arm, new balls and teflon inserts and has a firmer feel to the steering than the Roadster (when it's not binding), so it may become a candidate for the shorter arm as well. But that will wait until the Roadster is done so I can make space in the shop.
Tom Wesenberg
Well-known member
A&L does an excellent job of reballing the steering arms, and they do it the strongest and best way by welding on balls with a hole to fit your milled ball shaft.
Sorry you did not like my answer...first, I was basing my statement on an otherwise normal steering system. Any worn balls or linkages, etc. could obviously cause interferance or binding. Second, I assume from your user name that you are a pilot. If you can envision how an aileron (sp?) is extended during a landing event on a passenger jet, you can see how a Model A steering box works. A threaded rod spinning inside a fixture mounted to the aileron or flap causes it to extend. If you were to grasp the aileron and attempt to move it, it would not. I hope that makes more sense! Good luck with it!
Pilotdave
Well-known member
kartek, thanks for the example - it makes total sense, though I am wondering a bit about the relative leverage ratios in the Model A steering system vs a modern jet's airleron and how that would affect the problem at hand.
Yes, I am a pilot, though rated only for single engine prop planes - and that of the variety whose flaps are controlled by cables. Sort of the same technology used for brakes in our A's! My point was only that I'd rather have fewer rather than more things to fix, at least at the moment. I have to confess that a large portion of the enjoyment "we" get from our two A's is repairing them. It's good for the soul. I'll report back after I replace the steering and pitman arms.
Yes, I am a pilot, though rated only for single engine prop planes - and that of the variety whose flaps are controlled by cables. Sort of the same technology used for brakes in our A's! My point was only that I'd rather have fewer rather than more things to fix, at least at the moment. I have to confess that a large portion of the enjoyment "we" get from our two A's is repairing them. It's good for the soul. I'll report back after I replace the steering and pitman arms.
Barry B./ Ma.
Well-known member
Hi Dave,
With the wheels in the centered position and off the ground count the steering wheel turns on each side of center and that should tell if the sector gear is centered in the worm. Congratulations on the roadster, I have a late 30 standard roadster. I'm glad you are doing well and hope to see you at the Old Sturbridge Antique car rally on June 2nd.
With the wheels in the centered position and off the ground count the steering wheel turns on each side of center and that should tell if the sector gear is centered in the worm. Congratulations on the roadster, I have a late 30 standard roadster. I'm glad you are doing well and hope to see you at the Old Sturbridge Antique car rally on June 2nd.
You can say that again! I've been an auto mechanic for 35 years, and only recently became involved in the Model A hobby. What a joy these things are! The Model A has without question renewed my faith in the automobile!