Where it can't be seen....

[DavidG]

A very good question!

 

[Vic Piano]

Kube, here's something else we can agree on, the caliber of judges... I will say that the judging problem is not unique to the EFV8 Club, I've seen it in the Studebaker Drivers Club and others as well... That's another reason why I build my antique vehicles to please me, not some poorly qualified 'Judge'.

 

[stangblue]

I like my car being Judged! It's like playing Hide and Seek! %-))))

 

[DavidG]

The AACA has a school for judges, but then they turn around and prohibit their judges from crawling underneath the vehicles. The last time I looked, the chassis was the primary building block upon which everything else is added (unibody construction somewhat differently).

 

[ford38v8]

Actually not.... this motor has enlarged intake valves, a reground cam and a lightened flywheel with a v-8 clutch...all of which no one will ever see.....

That said, I have not decided if I put it in my almost all original Tudor, or save it for another car (it's a long story, was building the motor before I bought my car back).

There's the difference, in my opinion. The Allen head screws were not defensible as an improvement as your larger valves are. I would never again consider using a lead/acid battery as long as I can conceal an Optima.

 

[JM 35 Sedan]

I agree with you 100%. And as such never argue when I get what I feel is an incorrect deduction. I know my cars, like yours, are way "over restored".

I have posted before right here on the Barn that once a car is "restored" it can't simply by definition be "perfect".
Speaking of qualified judges... just when might we expect the Early Ford V8 Club to train judges?

One possibility for training and qualification of judges might be for those knowledgeable individuals who have written (or are in the process of rewritting) the EFV8C/A restoration guide books, come to the national meets and give training seminars in their particular area of expertise.

 

[DavidG]

That's a good idea, but it needs to be a part of the formal structure of the meet and not some back-of-the-envelope effort given no particular advance notice such as occurred at Gettysburg this year.

 

[JM 35 Sedan]

That's a good idea, but it needs to be a part of the formal structure of the meet and not some back-of-the-envelope effort given no particular advance notice such as occurred at Gettysburg this year.

This type of training should be easy to setup as a formal stuctured type meeting at any future National V8 Club Meet. Not sure what you are insinuating/implying that happened at Gettysburg.

 

[Kube]

That's a good idea, but it needs to be a part of the formal structure of the meet and not some back-of-the-envelope effort given no particular advance notice such as occurred at Gettysburg this year.

I agree with you (again) 100%.
I backed away from Gettysburg in part because of this. I was told the judges would be picked the morning of the concourse.

Um, sorry, but that's akin to how judges are "picked" at the local drive-in. Hardly worthy of V8 Club.

 

[stangblue]

Why this backhanded questioning the judging methods with in the V-8 club. The hobby is slowing and everyone knows it. By questioning judging it will only cause people in the hobby not to get involved in judging or showing their cars. Don't shoot yourself in the foot!

 

[DavidG]

Which is better, uninformed judges or informed judges, regardless of which club or the rate of travel of the hobby? In other words, which is the biggest turn-off for those wishing to have their cars judged?

 

[Kube]

Which is better, uninformed judges or informed judges, regardless of which club or the rate of travel of the hobby? In other words, which is the biggest turn-off for those wishing to have their cars judged?

Dave, I am afraid our conversation in regard to this judging (training) will fall for the most part on deaf ears.
Like you, I restore my cars to the best of my ability. I expect them to be judged by folks that actually know what they are doing. Unfortunately that pool has become very shallow. And, with the obvious direction the Ford WE ATE Club has going in, that pool will likely become drained completely.
It seems to me that most folks want to drive their cars to a national meet and expect to go home with a trophy. Never mind the fact their cars are 'drivers' (NO disrespect intended) and should (often) not be on the concourse.

What happened to the days when we as a society in general felt the need to actually earn?

 

[ford38v8]

It seems to me that most folks want to drive their cars to a national meet and expect to go home with a trophy. Never mind the fact their cars are 'drivers' (NO disrespect intended) and should (often) not be on the concourse.

I agree that most highly qualified judges are no longer able, for whatever reason, to attend and actively participate in the judging process. In times past, there were so many knowledgeable judges available, that training sessions, traditionally, were very limited in nature.

I believe that the training of judges should be accelerated, as stated above, to the degree that all judges participate in pre-Concourse classes at every National Meet. I also believe that there may be considerable interest in classes for Owners, based on the popularity of the Club's Restoration Books.

I do not agree with your statement "...'drivers' should (often) not be on the Concourse." 'Drivers', my friend, in many cases, are closer in accuracy to what was actually driven off the Dealer's lot than many "Restorations" today, and have always been the backbone of the V8 Club. There will always be a place of honor on every V8 Concourse for all 'drivers'.

 

[ford38v8]

Odd statement coming from a hard line judge.

I'm not sure of what you consider as odd, but I'll assume it is what I said about drivers. My meaning was that there are so many unmolested areas of every driver, that they are in many cases more authentic than an over-restored car, and regardless, garner as much or more interest than a fresh restoration gets.

As for being a hard line judge, that would be a subjective opinion, and more political than I would care to comment on.

 

[DavidG]

Alan,

When you refer to restored cars as "trailer queens" it suggests to me that you and some others (only some) on this site think that the "drivers" are the one expression of the true faith and that all other forms of the hobby border on blasphemy to varying degrees. There are so many facets under the umbrella of the automotive hobby ranging from rods to model builders to license plate collectors, all of which are worthy of respect, and I find it difficult to understand why restorers who wish to stick to "as built" as their preferred expression of their hobby don't seem to merit the same level of respect that the other facets do.

While I have no interest in driving across the U.S. in the height of summer in an old car, I have friends who find that to be their cup of tea. They are neither more or less meritorious for doing so nor am I more or less meritorious for not having done so. It's just people doing their own thing and I think that's just great.

I haven't shown a car in a long time, but my interest in restoring those that I have remains as strong as ever and some even consider me helpful with their projects, but that's only me and it doesn't make me more or less because of it.

So, enough with the knocks on restored cars. If you don't think that's fair, please cite one instance on this site where I've knocked "drivers".

 

[ford38v8]

David, I take it that you are now referring to my post #12, so perhaps I should rephrase that last sentence to read: "...enjoyed as a trailer queen, or as a car built primarily to be road worthy." Each, as you say, has definite merit and purpose. Nowhere have I ever said or implied that a restored car cannot also be road worthy. I think you're finding disagreement where there is none.

 

[stangblue]

This is my take on judging. You learn about your particular year by restoring that year. Now every body style is different within that year. So ones degree of expertise is through osmosis. Now some do the research if available to try to get it right and some don't. That's why when they have there car judged they find out what is wrong. Now if there is not competent judges within that year and body style you may get a conflict , that is why there is a senior judge to debate the point. I have had my car judged and received two different opinions and deductions. I'm fine with that because through my research and consensuses I find out what is right and what is wrong and not worried about any minor discrepancy that I can fix . Is still take undercarriage and chassis because that is what I am comfortable with at this point. Remember the club won't let you judge your peers in that year if you have a car being judged. I still like to judge other years because I can learn about those years as well. Remember most of us bring our wife's to the events and we certainly don't need the additional drama! Let's all try to get along and have fun with our peers and meet new people who have the same interests.

 

[deuce_roadster]

The idea of novice judges working with a good deputy judge in theory is great. In practice it sometimes lacks. I judged 32-34s at 7 national meets with my late best friend who was quite well known as a 32 expert, and over time, I learned a great deal. At a meet a couple of years ago I volunteered to be a novice judge on 40s because I was restoring my own 40 at the time and figured I could learn something. I'm sure I knew more then that particular deputy after hearing him waffle on several issues but I kept my mouth shut as to not be tagged as a "know it all". I don't know what the answer is, maybe the judging sheets need to be expanded and only those things are considered during judging. Some things are hard to over look though like very late parts being on a car with a very early VIN with mostly early features.
It is hard to get the expertise at the level needed. DavidG, Mike Kubarth and others can't be at every meet to know what the "as the car left the assembly line" answers are.
We just have to accept that the judging is an inexact process, as hard as that is-because it is unfortunately the reality.

 

[Paul Dobbin]

My experience has been that old Fords tend to reject reproduction mechsanical parts

 

[JM 35 Sedan]

That's a good idea, but it needs to be a part of the formal structure of the meet and not some back-of-the-envelope effort given no particular advance notice such as occurred at Gettysburg this year.

I agree with you (again) 100%.
I backed away from Gettysburg in part because of this. I was told the judges would be picked the morning of the concourse.

Um, sorry, but that's akin to how judges are "picked" at the local drive-in. Hardly worthy of V8 Club.

Which is better, uninformed judges or informed judges, regardless of which club or the rate of travel of the hobby? In other words, which is the biggest turn-off for those wishing to have their cars judged?

Dave, I am afraid our conversation in regard to this judging (training) will fall for the most part on deaf ears.
Like you, I restore my cars to the best of my ability. I expect them to be judged by folks that actually know what they are doing. Unfortunately that pool has become very shallow. And, with the obvious direction the Ford WE ATE Club has going in, that pool will likely become drained completely.
It seems to me that most folks want to drive their cars to a national meet and expect to go home with a trophy. Never mind the fact their cars are 'drivers' (NO disrespect intended) and should (often) not be on the concourse.

What happened to the days when we as a society in general felt the need to actually earn?

Okay gentleman, I just received my registration package for the 2017 Eastern National Meet to be held in Chantilly, VA, and in this package I see there is a Seminar Presenter Invation Form provided for those folks who wish to volunteer to do a seminar during this meet. This seems like a perfect opportunity for some of our extremely knowledgeable V-8 club members to offer some judging training in areas of their respective Early Ford V-8 vehicle expertise. As suggested in several posts on this thread, we need to start doing this somewhere/sometime in the near future, so what better time and place is there to get this type of training moving.