51 MERC-CT
Well-known member
Probably the way yours is done is the same way Ford did it on hundreds of thousands of cars without any issues.
What's wrong with this picture?
- Thread starter Old Henry
- Start date
Mart
Well-known member
The clutch would have (some) more life in it if the springs had not been touching the bolts.
The flywheel might be smooth now but maybe it wasn't so smooth when first fitted.
You can do a few things, amongst which may be:
You could simply fit another clutch which will last at least 38,000 miles. Maybe more if the flywheel smoother now than it was when new scenario is true. Lets say 40,000 miles as a guess.
You could skim a few thou off the heads of the bolts. if you take .040" off, they should still be perfectly serviceable and would extend the life of the next clutch. I don't know, lets say 60,000 miles.
The above scenarios would not involve removal of the flywheel or more importantly (if the engine is still in the car) the pan.
If you can find a good condition, useable as is 59a type flywheel and fit that, without it having to be skimmed, you will get the maximum life from your clutch. I don't know what can be expected, would 60,000 miles be normal? It's a heavy car and gets driven over demanding roads. It would last indefinitely if driven on freeways all the time.
If you find a flywheel and it can be made serviceable with just the lightest skim, the life should be as above, as long as the skim is not excessive, as it does seem reasonable that is what has caused the premature spring/bolt contact above.
I wouldn't worry about the bolts wiring too much. If they are torqued correctly, the wiring should never be called upon to stop them loosening. I found better success using thinner wire on the last job I did, but it still came up far short of some of the illustrations I have seen.
Hope the above helps in some way.
Long story short, find a better flywheel.
I just had a thought, did you say you had that one balanced? If that is the case one of the first two options may appeal more.
Mart.
The flywheel might be smooth now but maybe it wasn't so smooth when first fitted.
You can do a few things, amongst which may be:
You could simply fit another clutch which will last at least 38,000 miles. Maybe more if the flywheel smoother now than it was when new scenario is true. Lets say 40,000 miles as a guess.
You could skim a few thou off the heads of the bolts. if you take .040" off, they should still be perfectly serviceable and would extend the life of the next clutch. I don't know, lets say 60,000 miles.
The above scenarios would not involve removal of the flywheel or more importantly (if the engine is still in the car) the pan.
If you can find a good condition, useable as is 59a type flywheel and fit that, without it having to be skimmed, you will get the maximum life from your clutch. I don't know what can be expected, would 60,000 miles be normal? It's a heavy car and gets driven over demanding roads. It would last indefinitely if driven on freeways all the time.
If you find a flywheel and it can be made serviceable with just the lightest skim, the life should be as above, as long as the skim is not excessive, as it does seem reasonable that is what has caused the premature spring/bolt contact above.
I wouldn't worry about the bolts wiring too much. If they are torqued correctly, the wiring should never be called upon to stop them loosening. I found better success using thinner wire on the last job I did, but it still came up far short of some of the illustrations I have seen.
Hope the above helps in some way.
Long story short, find a better flywheel.
I just had a thought, did you say you had that one balanced? If that is the case one of the first two options may appeal more.
Mart.
Old Henry
Well-known member
All good ideas to be considered, Mart.
I agree that the flywheel surface is smoother now than when last resurfaced. That makes me hesitant to get a new one that would likely have the rougher new surface.
I don't mind a bit grinding off some of the bolt heads and had thought about that.
My biggest concern is that this clutch has had bad chatter since it was put in new with the newly surfaced flywheel 38,000 miles ago. I'd really like to lose that for a time if not for good. I know I've got to replace the clutch but wonder which way my chances of losing the clutch chatter would be better, keeping the flywheel I have with the worn down but smooth surface or get a new one with a new rougher surface. That's the "$64,000 question" (a popular TV quiz show here in the states back in the 50's).
I agree that the flywheel surface is smoother now than when last resurfaced. That makes me hesitant to get a new one that would likely have the rougher new surface.
I don't mind a bit grinding off some of the bolt heads and had thought about that.
My biggest concern is that this clutch has had bad chatter since it was put in new with the newly surfaced flywheel 38,000 miles ago. I'd really like to lose that for a time if not for good. I know I've got to replace the clutch but wonder which way my chances of losing the clutch chatter would be better, keeping the flywheel I have with the worn down but smooth surface or get a new one with a new rougher surface. That's the "$64,000 question" (a popular TV quiz show here in the states back in the 50's).
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oldford2
Well-known member
Old Henry
Well-known member
Is it "probably" or is that how Ford did it?
Now that right there is just downright purty.
But, it looks a lot more like a modern motorcycle brake rotor than a vintage Ford flywheel.
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deuce_roadster
Well-known member
Combination of flywheel surfaced too much, lock washers under bolt heads. Bolts look stock to me.
I see some heat checks and hot spots in the flywheel, probably a result of Ol' Henry being stuck a few times. This could lead to chatter, possibly. Surface of disc and flywheel could be heat glazed. More chatter. Does the disc have proper marcel? This is the "springiness" of the disc, looking at the edge. The metal that the lining is riveted to should be wavy, slightly separating the two linings. This provides a cushion as the clutch engages and squeezes the disc together gradually instead of grabbing all at once.
J Witt
Well-known member
Safety wiring is a technique to keep a bolt from unscrewing itself and causing damage. Safety wire is NOT meant to keep the bolt tight, the proper installation torque is what keeps the bolt tight (assuming the bolted joint is correctly designed). I'm sure rotorwrench has a comment about this.
The stock Ford loop of wire through the flywheel bolts is almost useless, IMHO, as is safety wiring/cotter pinning connecting rod bolts/nuts. These are types of joints which, if they come loose, part destruction will occur before the machine can be stopped.
The wire will not maintain the bolt at a proper torque, it just keeps it from fouling the rest of the machine if for some reason the threaded connection comes loose.
There is a lot of online info about safety wiring practices in aviation. Aircraft procedures have been adopted in most areas, like auto racing, where this kind of safety backup is required.
A buddy once told me that for aviation or racing, the best stuff you can get is barely adequate. True, I think.
The stock Ford loop of wire through the flywheel bolts is almost useless, IMHO, as is safety wiring/cotter pinning connecting rod bolts/nuts. These are types of joints which, if they come loose, part destruction will occur before the machine can be stopped.
The wire will not maintain the bolt at a proper torque, it just keeps it from fouling the rest of the machine if for some reason the threaded connection comes loose.
There is a lot of online info about safety wiring practices in aviation. Aircraft procedures have been adopted in most areas, like auto racing, where this kind of safety backup is required.
A buddy once told me that for aviation or racing, the best stuff you can get is barely adequate. True, I think.
A bones
Well-known member
You need a fresh start. Begin with condemning the flywheel. What does Mac VP offer as opinion. For me any flywheel that looks irregular and/or, has a history of being machined qualifies to either be used as a paper weight, hung on the wall, or turned in for scrap.
The fact that you have had to put up with clutch chatter says it all for me.
If there were not a history of being previously cut and trouble with clearance. I would try some chemical cleaner to remove what has to be burnt gum-glaze build up. (given that you say it is smooth) That pattern is real and is the place that chatter develops and grows.
Get picture of surface to Ft Wayne or Mac.
Kurt in NJ, Ross F-1, Kube, JM 35, Mart, Jseery, 40 Deluxe, will not argue with replacing flywheel. Good luck.
The fact that you have had to put up with clutch chatter says it all for me.
If there were not a history of being previously cut and trouble with clearance. I would try some chemical cleaner to remove what has to be burnt gum-glaze build up. (given that you say it is smooth) That pattern is real and is the place that chatter develops and grows.
Get picture of surface to Ft Wayne or Mac.
Kurt in NJ, Ross F-1, Kube, JM 35, Mart, Jseery, 40 Deluxe, will not argue with replacing flywheel. Good luck.
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drolston
Well-known member
Don't have a real picture, so try this: Picture a flywheel bolt trying to unscrew itself; then run the safety wire to the adjacent bolts in a way that would most strongly oppose that unscrewing. It will will end up in a four blade saw tooth pattern.
oldford2
Well-known member
Geez, I am sorry I mentioned the proper safety wire installation. "probably", "doubt", etc.
The assembler who installed the flywheel could correctly safety wire the bolts in 20 seconds or less.
John
42merc
Well-known member
Four things I would do.
Get rid of the dowel retaining ring.
Get rid of the lock-washers.
Maybe trim the bolt heads a fuzz.
Use red locktite to retain the bolts.
No reasonably modern engine uses the plate & safety wire. I don't care how Ford did it.
Simply not needed.
I deal a lot with mid fifty's Cadillacs, they don't use that stuff & they stay together.
Get rid of the dowel retaining ring.
Get rid of the lock-washers.
Maybe trim the bolt heads a fuzz.
Use red locktite to retain the bolts.
No reasonably modern engine uses the plate & safety wire. I don't care how Ford did it.
Simply not needed.
I deal a lot with mid fifty's Cadillacs, they don't use that stuff & they stay together.
Old Henry
Well-known member
A few questions: What is the dowel retaining ring? What lock washers? What plate referred to with the safety wire?
51 MERC-CT
Well-known member
The dowel retaining ring/plate is the large washer that the four flywheel retaining bolts go thru.
Removing it will allow the bolts to move closer to the flywheel.
Some have been assuming that they see lock washers under the bolts. ( I don't see any )
rotorwrench
Well-known member
Most folks reuse the bolt ring since it just acts as a washer for all four bolts that cant turn when you tighten up the bolts. It probably has scratches from multiple removal/installation. If that ring has to go than the flywheel really should go. Stuff does wear out and compensating for wear by removal of key parts is just asking for more trouble. In the 8BA years, Ford did away with the thick headed bolts and safety wire for stronger cupped head bolts and they don't have any history of backing out that I'm aware of.
51 MERC-CT
Well-known member
Measure the bolt fit (length) to the threaded hole and if necessary remove material from the threaded end.
Mart
Well-known member
I wouldn't delete the plate. It acts as an anti stress raiser for the cast iron flywheel. I would consider using an alternative bolt from another motor that has a washer face built in and less overall height. If they were available I would then consider deleting the plate, but would possibly stake the dowel holes so the dowels can't come out (Unlikely, I guess).
I saw a flywheel explode on a test cell, due to the use of Allen bolts instead of regular bolts holding it on. The smaller head of the allen bolt created too much stress and the flywheel exploded. There was a big dent in the roof girder from the shrapnel.
This is why I would leave the flat plate in place, unless using washered bolts.
Mart.
I saw a flywheel explode on a test cell, due to the use of Allen bolts instead of regular bolts holding it on. The smaller head of the allen bolt created too much stress and the flywheel exploded. There was a big dent in the roof girder from the shrapnel.
This is why I would leave the flat plate in place, unless using washered bolts.
Mart.