What Temperature?

Hello, not so much on a Model A,but with some experience on straight 8 engines , the thermostat helps the water to reach the rear most cylinders , and also on some models, Packard for example it controls the opening of the grill slats , they open and close to help control water temperature. Model A s are much simpler,probably helps explain why they are still around. I did put a Snyders thermostat in my 31 on does keep a more consistent temperature around 170 .
 
Everyone who makes Model A thermostats drills bypass holes in the flange. This is a solved problem.

Colin, one of the biggest reasons why I don't like Thermostats is that the #4 and#3 cylinders run hotter due to less water circulation when using a Thermostat. A Model-T (outside of the very first production units) engine does not use a Water Pump. It relies on thermo-syphon to circulate the coolant/water. A Model-A is also a thermosyphon system that uses a non-positive displacing pump. This is the same as slapping your hand in a sink of water trying to move the liquid. It works but very inefficiently. Even less effectively if there is something obstructing the path (-i.e.: a board, a hand, or??) where the water is trying to be moved to. The same applies to trying to use the Model-A Pump to move the coolant up the outlet pipe back into the Radiator. The Model-A Water Pump is very inefficient at moving the water up the pipe without the aid of thermo-syphon. It is even more inefficient at moving that water when there is an unnecessary obstruction (-i.e.: a Thermostat).

Now the detrimental thing that most never realize is when there is an obstruction without a positive displacement pump, there are areas where the coolant/water can become stagnant inside the cooling jackets. Generally that area is around #4 and then #3 cylinders. When we do tear downs, occasionally we will see heat discoloration in the #4 cylinder walls. When we do not see that evidence of heat in the other cylinders, there is a high probability that someone was using a Thermostat. When overheating in that area occurs, there is a risk of cracking or damage. Damage such as premature ring wear due to galling, or detonation that causes bearing damage, etc. Most Model-A drivers are clueless when listening for signs of detonation or overheating until it is too late. So again, IMO a Thermostat is not necessary, -nor a good thing unless a positive-displacement Water Pump is used.
 
The pump is inefficient, sure, but I don't know that we can say that a restriction in the hose is enough to seriously compromise its operation. You'd need to actually measure the flow to figure that out. I agree that the stock head design is a problem. That's why I plan to run the Burtz head, and it's also why people using thermostats should be taking IR temp measurements off the back of the head in addition to watching their temp gauge. You may be running 170 at the front of the head and 190 at the back.
 
The pump is inefficient, sure, but I don't know that we can say that a restriction in the hose is enough to seriously compromise its operation. You'd need to actually measure the flow to figure that out. I agree that the stock head design is a problem. That's why I plan to run the Burtz head, and it's also why people using thermostats should be taking IR temp measurements off the back of the head in addition to watching their temp gauge. You may be running 170 at the front of the head and 190 at the back.

Model A cooling system moves about 32 gpm without any restrictions.

That’s with thermal syphon doing most of the work. If there is a restriction think about how much of an effect that could have on your system.
 
I have taken measurements and the only time #4 was warmer was during a 40 minute idle with spark more retarded than when I drive and it was 5 degrees warmer — the diagram may not be easy to read I was also taking shock absorber temperatures and the driving temperature was pulled over after steady 50 mph for 15 miles—
My thermostat is as manufactured with no additional holes drilled,the water pump is stock with no modifications to the vanes.
I use antifreeze.
One thing I have noticed is that the little “steam “ holes a lot of times look open at the gasket surface but are more than 1/2 closed off on the other side and those holes were cleaned all the way through to bare metal with a drill bit.

I also have a model T and the thermosyphen action can be watched through the radiator neck and it’s amazing how much and fast the coolant moves.
It doesn’t overheat even after long parades at idling speed.
The thermosyphen action starts working at about 180 degrees
 

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i wonder how these engines lasted 100 years without thermostats ?
my guess is without a thermostat your fresh rebuilt engine is gonna out last you.
i think the world is too full of information that everyone wants to apply to stuff that doesn't matter.
save you money on the thermostat and use it for date night.
 
As I said earlier, my car ran too cold to my liking. My car now runs 175-180° now that I installed a thermostat.

What type of oil should we run again? :rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
Model A cooling system moves about 32 gpm without any restrictions.

That’s with thermal syphon doing most of the work. If there is a restriction think about how much of an effect that could have on your system.


I don’t know how much effect that would have on the system and neither do you.
 
I don’t know how much effect that would have on the system and neither do you.



You’re right, it’s an unknown.

But it’s still a restriction. Any time you have the potential for a reduction in coolant there is the possibility of overheating.

Believe it or not thermal syphon is what’s doing most of the work.

Enjoy,
 
I understand that a restriction in the cooling circuit will make that circuit less effective. But the entire point of thermostats is that, on some of these cars, the cooling circuit is too effective. The engine is constantly operating below its optimal temperature. All the interventions discussed, from restrictor plates to thermostats to cardboard panels, are intended to reduce the efficacy of the cooling system.

It's also true that reducing this efficacy could cause the engine to overheat under stress. It's a tradeoff – is improving the efficiency of the engine worth the risk that it could overheat? Opinions will vary.
 
The addition of a thermostat gave me 3 more mpg,and cleaner oil because it allows a leaner mixture.

I'm calling BS on this one!! Assuming your Model-A was averaging 15MPG before, I struggle to believe by only installing a Thermostat increased your MPG by 20%!! :eek::p

I must be honest in saying that I am struggling with the "cleaner oil because of a leaner mixture" theory also!! And that this is only accomplished by a Thermostat and not by properly adjusting the Carburetor's GAV?? Wow, ...who knew?? :o


Not to mention a warmer engine helps get rid of the moisture, gas and acids in the crankcase from combustion that leaks past the rings.

Where is the scientific data on this as it pertains to a Model-A Engine? I apologize if this is all meant to be sarcasm because if so, these two flew right over my head! :o

If you two are trying to make the rest of us believe this, then let me ask a couple questions;


  • Are you suggesting that we are supposed to believe that by increasing the Engine's temperature from an estimated 150°-160° without a Thermostat to 180° operating temperature using a Thermostat is a sufficient increase in crankcase temperature to evaporate any/all of the condensation out of the Crankcase?
.

  • The 2nd portion of this that I want to make sure I clearly understand is, -are we to understand that this extra 10-15 degrees rise in Engine Coolant temperature (-again, this is Coolant temps and not necessarily Crankcase temps!) is enough to eliminate contamination of the Engine Oil from poorly tuned Carburetors or poorly-fitting Piston Rings?

Geez, you just never know what new information you learn here on Fordbarn!! :rolleyes:
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ROFL.gif
 
Where is the scientific data on this as it pertains to a Model-A Engine? I apologize if this is all meant to be sarcasm because if so, these two flew right over my head! :o

If you two are trying to make the rest of us believe this, then let me ask a couple questions;


  • Are you suggesting that we are supposed to believe that by increasing the Engine's temperature from an estimated 150°-160° without a Thermostat to 180° operating temperature using a Thermostat is a sufficient increase in crankcase temperature to evaporate any/all of the condensation out of the Crankcase?
.

  • The 2nd portion of this that I want to make sure I clearly understand is, -are we to understand that this extra 10-15 degrees rise in Engine Coolant temperature (-again, this is Coolant temps and not necessarily Crankcase temps!) is enough to eliminate contamination of the Engine Oil from poorly tuned Carburetors or poorly-fitting Piston Rings?



Never said it eliminates, I said it HELPS remove contaminates. Let me ask you this, when I raised the temperature of my engine ~20°, why does my oil no longer smell like gasoline?
 
This discussion is fascinating; I am a bit shocked that in almost a hundred years no one has done an extensive test program on thermostats in a Model A. Maybe some of the vendors who sell these products should chime in, or not. The Burtz folks still run a stock water pump, pls correct me if I'm wrong. Do they recommend a thermostat for their engines? Which are being generally driven more robustly, I think. Good discussion!!
 
Never said it eliminates, I said it HELPS remove contaminates. Let me ask you this, when I raised the temperature of my engine ~20°, why does my oil no longer smell like gasoline?

Ok, excuse me but please allow me to play along...
If raising the coolant temperature by 20° HELPS remove contaminates, what is the other 'helper' that is assisting with removing the remainder of contaminants? Going even further, by comparison percentages, what percentage is the Coolant's temperature playing, and what percentage is this 'helper' playing??



This discussion is fascinating; I am a bit shocked that in almost a hundred years no one has done an extensive test program on thermostats in a Model A. Maybe some of the vendors who sell these products should chime in, or not. The Burtz folks still run a stock water pump, pls correct me if I'm wrong. Do they recommend a thermostat for their engines? Which are being generally driven more robustly, I think. Good discussion!!


In essence, there really hasn't been the need to do an extensive study. It is like saying we need a scientific study to determine what species of wood works best when rubbing two sticks together to start a fire. Of all the fires started in this country, what percentage of all those fires are actually started by rubbing two sticks together? That percentage is probably so insignificant that it is not worth the effort, likely because newer technology has evolved. The same applies to the Model-A cooling system. As stated above, the Model-A system was not an efficient design due to the style of Water Pump, and its' location. Beginning in 1937 when Ford engineers relocated the Water Pump which at that point, a Thermostat's use is/was effective.

Regarding Vendors chiming in, ...what can they tell you? Maybe something like "We sell a lot of them.", Does that validate the Thermostat's usefulness? Instead, why don't you ask a Model-A engine rebuilder, -or maybe a Model-A repair shop about their experiences with them?? Maybe ask them how many they have removed, and/or why?? Again, it could be argued that a manufacturer and/or a vendor might be more biased in making a sale however they may not have first-hand experience with them. Just my take on that.



One other thing that I feel is worth mentioning/discussing, but before I do, I consider other folks posting above as my friends, and it is not worth losing a friend over just for one of us to prove a point. So just consider what I am about to write as some food for thought based on my experiences, ...and others are equally entitled to their opinions too. :cool:

Just because coolant temperatures are raised by a certain amount (-in this scenario we will use a 20° benchmark) does not necessarily mean the oil temperatures increase by that same 20° amount. There are several reasons for this however in an effort to keep this short(er) :eek: I will only address the biggest reason which is the physical location of the two fluids. The closest that the oil is to the coolant is in the lower portion of the Valve chamber. That is a large distance between the two for any heat transfer or heat soaking. Combustion heat rises, which that heat is transferred from the roof of the chamber into the coolant in the Cylinder Head. The other location is above the Valve chamber around the Exhaust ports. When you study the design of a Model-A Engine, 75% of the Cylinder is not cooled by water jackets because it isn't needed. The only place the oil contacts the inside of the block casting is in the lower section of the Valve chamber (-which BTW that area is not water jacketed) and in that 75% area under the Pistons where combustion heat is not quickly transferred. It is also worth noting that the design of the Model-A Oil Pan is that 4 quarts of oil generally resides in the sump where it is cooled, and approximately ½ of a quart is in the Chamber reservoir, and the remaining ½ quart is in the Dipper Tray.

Therefore, the only way to increase the Engine's oil temperatures to any significant amount high enough for it to remove the combustion byproducts and/or unburned fuel, would be to operate the Engine for a long enough period (-hours, -not minutes) where the oil temperature could exceed 200°. I refer you back to my statement above where the highest temperatures are in the water jacket area above the roof of the Combustion Chamber. This is a long, long way to the Oil Pan, and it's just not going to happen.

And, to remove water condensation in the crankcase will need to see temperatures exceeding the boiling point of water (-which is 212°) where it can be evaporated. Even if you were to install a 212° Thermostat, you could never generate enough heat transfer into the Oil for it to meet that temperature. Again, its just not going to happen.

Again, these are my experiences from being a racer, an engine rebuilder, and someone who thinks when they are bored standing over an engine being assembled. Other's mileage with this may differ!! ;)
 
Brent, I agree a test program on thermostats would never be a good ROI. But there are a lot of great shade tree mechs that could do some pretty thorough investigations on the subject. Maybe enough to make a decision not based on a knee jerk. If I was freezing, I would want to know what wood to use to make a fire. Sorry, gotta throw a little levity in here. I personally don't run a thermostat, I don't see how it would help other than warm up quicker. The potential to cause problems with cooling is not worth the risk for me. Why risk your engine. Semi's in cold weather areas use shutters in front of the radiator, I think.

160 deg. stats are pretty common in the auto world, so if removing water is the goal, just try to drive longer occasionally to get up to temp, give your engine a chance to dry itself out, also the muffler and tailpipe to cook a bit.
 
Brent, I agree a test program on thermostats would never be a good ROI. But there are a lot of great shade tree mechs that could do some pretty thorough investigations on the subject. Maybe enough to make a decision not based on a knee jerk. If I was freezing, I would want to know what wood to use to make a fire. Sorry, gotta throw a little levity in here. I personally don't run a thermostat, I don't see how it would help other than warm up quicker. The potential to cause problems with cooling is not worth the risk for me. Why risk your engine. Semi's in cold weather areas use shutters in front of the radiator, I think.

160 deg. stats are pretty common in the auto world, so if removing water is the goal, just try to drive longer occasionally to get up to temp, give your engine a chance to dry itself out, also the muffler and tailpipe to cook a bit.


Likely, you already know what wood to use, ...anything that is available that is dry!! :D You are correct about big trucks using shutters. I have a couple of accessory shutters designed for the Model-A called Winterfronts that serve the same purpose.

Generally speaking, most Model-A hobbyists predominantly use their Model-A for short (-under 30 minute) drives. This never really allows the Engine oil to reach operating temps. It does however allow a savvy driver to use certain portions of the drive to lean the fuel mixture of the Carburetor some and retard the Ignition Timing some in an effort to increase Engine temps. Otherwise, change the Engine's oil frequently. Ford specified that Engine Oil was to be changed every 500 miles. I tell my customers that organic Oil today is basically twice as good as it was back then, therefore go twice as far as Ford recommended with intervals to be every 1,000 miles or twelve months on an Oil change, ...whichever comes first.
 
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