Timing issue
- Thread starter palmaceae
- Start date
With all due respect; the answers to palmaceae are useful, but I don't think we are leading him in the correct direction.
I have 1/8" rotational play in my distributor, and the timing works exactly as it should. I have good power, optimum water temperature, and good gas mileage. In my opinion rotational play has no bad affect. However, if the bushing to shaft fit is loose, or the points mounting plate is loose; then I do agree they will affect timing.
When setting my timing, I make sure I take up the rotational play before tightening the point cam screw. Normally, that rotational play is taken up when the motor is running. To check my timing, I retard the spark lever fully; then while holding the coil wire near a head bolt I advance the spark lever, and within one or two notches a spark should occur. If not, I readjust the point cam position until it does.
As long as palmaceae doesn't have excess play in the shaft/bushing, or in the points mounting plate; he should be able to time his Model A and it will run correctly.
I have not deduced what palmaceae's problem is. I want to think (as mentioned above) that the timing is too far advanced. I would have to get my hands on it to see if I could solve his problem.
I see we both live in Iowa, but I am in east-central, and he is in the NW. I'm afraid that would not be a short commute.
I hope this information helps.
I have 1/8" rotational play in my distributor, and the timing works exactly as it should. I have good power, optimum water temperature, and good gas mileage. In my opinion rotational play has no bad affect. However, if the bushing to shaft fit is loose, or the points mounting plate is loose; then I do agree they will affect timing.
When setting my timing, I make sure I take up the rotational play before tightening the point cam screw. Normally, that rotational play is taken up when the motor is running. To check my timing, I retard the spark lever fully; then while holding the coil wire near a head bolt I advance the spark lever, and within one or two notches a spark should occur. If not, I readjust the point cam position until it does.
As long as palmaceae doesn't have excess play in the shaft/bushing, or in the points mounting plate; he should be able to time his Model A and it will run correctly.
I have not deduced what palmaceae's problem is. I want to think (as mentioned above) that the timing is too far advanced. I would have to get my hands on it to see if I could solve his problem.
I see we both live in Iowa, but I am in east-central, and he is in the NW. I'm afraid that would not be a short commute.
I hope this information helps.
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palmaceae
Member
Thanks Ron,
Yes it would be a long commute! I may not be explaining it correctly, but the problem is I get the timing close as mentioned above, so I try move the cam in very small increments but I seem to move it too much and I just can not get that "sweet spot" where the timing is perfect. Now if the points are not gapped correctly can that cause this. I have checked it but I will check it again.
palmaceae - That is a good question; someone on Fordbarn once stated timing will change with point gap adjustment. But I haven't convinced myself that happens (I haven't visualize the idea). I do know that point gap affects coil saturation. The closer that gap, the more saturation, and vise-a-versa.
I have always wanted to play with my timing by just adjusting the point gap, but haven't yet. I like driving the car too much, and tend to just maintain and fix when necessary.
I think you stated you have a cam wrench. I don't, but sometimes wished I did. I would think you can make finer adjustments to cam position using that wrench. I have noticed some of the vendors have a degree wheel you can put on the distirbutor, and using the wrench with said wheel make adjustments. Maybe that's what you need to see just how much that last adjustment was.
All I can say for right now is to keep trying. Is there a MAFCA or MARC club in your area? If so, maybe a knowledgable member in that club could look things over.
I have always wanted to play with my timing by just adjusting the point gap, but haven't yet. I like driving the car too much, and tend to just maintain and fix when necessary.
I think you stated you have a cam wrench. I don't, but sometimes wished I did. I would think you can make finer adjustments to cam position using that wrench. I have noticed some of the vendors have a degree wheel you can put on the distirbutor, and using the wrench with said wheel make adjustments. Maybe that's what you need to see just how much that last adjustment was.
All I can say for right now is to keep trying. Is there a MAFCA or MARC club in your area? If so, maybe a knowledgable member in that club could look things over.
palmaceae
Member
Thanks, I did not even think about using the cam wrench, I probably can make finer adjustments that way.
palmaceae
Member
marc hildebrant
Well-known member
Just checking the basics...(I learned this the hard way).
You need to use a cam wrench to hold the cam while you tighten the cam screw. Also, approach the turning of the cam to find the "break point" in the directions (CW or CCW) as shown in the Andrews book. Makes a BIG difference.
Marc
You need to use a cam wrench to hold the cam while you tighten the cam screw. Also, approach the turning of the cam to find the "break point" in the directions (CW or CCW) as shown in the Andrews book. Makes a BIG difference.
Marc
palmaceae
Member
Marco Tahtaras
Well-known member
Think of it this way: Lets say you are running an "A" distributor cam which has symmetrical lobes. Now, start with a point gap that provides 30° of dwell (points closed for 30°). Next, reduce the point gap to provide a dwell of 40°. With the symmetrical cam lobes that means the points close 5 distributor degrees earlier and open 5 distributor degrees LATER. That translates to 10 crankshaft degrees later that the points will break.
It is VERY important to always time your engine with the point gap adjusted as you intend to run in normally. Once that is done, the timing will return to correct when you readjust the point gap (to normal) when correcting for wear of the rubbing block.
Marco Tahtaras
Well-known member
LET'S START OVER!!!
There have been many good points expressed here but 90% of them have little or nothing to do with your immediate problem, thus only add confusion.
First, read through my timing page a time or two. Kurt provided a link but here it is again:
http://www.abarnyard.com/workshop/timing.htm
Now, from your description it sounds like it is too far advanced as I said before. I suggested a "B" timing cover which is a long shot and certainly would not apply if you've ever successfully timed this engine before. If it's an "A" production period timing cover then there will be a small round boss where the the timing pin screws into the cover. A "B" cover will have a very obvious elongated boss with the timing pin screwed in at one end of that boss.
Ok, lets say you have the correct cover. It is very possible you THOUGHT you hit the timing mark with the pin. You may not have done so. My timing page has more info and thoughts on that issue.
Lastly, the timing may be in the ball park and the distributor is simply shorting out when you advance the lever. This DOES NOT match your description but I can't assume anything. You said you changed the points. If the pig tail wire was incorrectly positioned or has other problems it could be arcing ONLY when the plate is rotated toward the advanced position. This would actually cause some misfiring which again is not what you described but it would certainly result in a loss of power.
There have been many good points expressed here but 90% of them have little or nothing to do with your immediate problem, thus only add confusion.
First, read through my timing page a time or two. Kurt provided a link but here it is again:
http://www.abarnyard.com/workshop/timing.htm
Now, from your description it sounds like it is too far advanced as I said before. I suggested a "B" timing cover which is a long shot and certainly would not apply if you've ever successfully timed this engine before. If it's an "A" production period timing cover then there will be a small round boss where the the timing pin screws into the cover. A "B" cover will have a very obvious elongated boss with the timing pin screwed in at one end of that boss.
Ok, lets say you have the correct cover. It is very possible you THOUGHT you hit the timing mark with the pin. You may not have done so. My timing page has more info and thoughts on that issue.
Lastly, the timing may be in the ball park and the distributor is simply shorting out when you advance the lever. This DOES NOT match your description but I can't assume anything. You said you changed the points. If the pig tail wire was incorrectly positioned or has other problems it could be arcing ONLY when the plate is rotated toward the advanced position. This would actually cause some misfiring which again is not what you described but it would certainly result in a loss of power.
palmaceae
Member
Marco,
I did try to find the timing mark (it is an "A" timing cover) but was not successful so I removed the #1 plug and found TDC (it had to be correct because it was not 180 degrees off). I know this was just ballpark but it was close. I do not think it is a short in the distributor because I had that problem before and this is not acting the same way. I will take a look at your web article and try it again tonight.
Thanks
I did try to find the timing mark (it is an "A" timing cover) but was not successful so I removed the #1 plug and found TDC (it had to be correct because it was not 180 degrees off). I know this was just ballpark but it was close. I do not think it is a short in the distributor because I had that problem before and this is not acting the same way. I will take a look at your web article and try it again tonight.
Thanks
Patrick L.
Well-known member
Once you have found TDC thru the sparkler hole then you may have better luck finding it with the timing pin.. You'll be able to swing the crankshaft 5-10 degrees or so without moving the piston so locating the hole/dimple in the camshaft gear is pretty important.. The dimples in some replacement gears are/is pretty small and hard to feel at times, grinding a bit more of a point on the timing pin helps or even using a scratch awl or small phillips screwdriver.. Removing all the sparklers makes it easier to spin the engine by hand..
palmaceae
Member
That is what I tried, and I think I found the dimple but it may have been my imagination. It certainly was not pronounced. I will try either a screwdriver or what Marco suggested on his web site.
Thanks
mrtexas
Well-known member
Here is what I did to time my A correctly. I thought I had followed the directions of how to do it manually but still overheating. I bought a timing gauge available from the usual vendors for $10 and installed it on the bolt(if you don't like the looks of it take it off when done). I put a white paint timing mark on the pulley after verifying TDC, I even took off the timing cover to make sure as the indents in timing gears were small and hard to find. Low and behold when I used by timing light I was way off, something like 19 degrees too retarded. If you are timing challenged like me, nothing beats using a timing light to check your work. No more wrong timing. Some will say a timing light isn't necessary. I say it may not be necessary for them but it was for me.
skip
BANNED
Your correct gap was 0.020" right?
No flat feeler guages for me. I usually twist them [the feelers] 'tween the points and end up with something other than 0.020.
Although not this gaper pictured here but one I have with 0.020 and 0.023 wires and I use the wire as a 'GO' ~ 'No Go' Gage while I hold the distributor in my hand. It takes a little time but finding that sweet spot is worth all the efforts.
Once the gap is set than it's onward to the point cam/timing setting, taking out the 'slop' and that my friends is an art and an exersize in frustration. I can only tell if I have it dead nuts by running the engine and with full retard to generate that lope of 1-3-4-2 that no other engine has.
skip.
No flat feeler guages for me. I usually twist them [the feelers] 'tween the points and end up with something other than 0.020.
Although not this gaper pictured here but one I have with 0.020 and 0.023 wires and I use the wire as a 'GO' ~ 'No Go' Gage while I hold the distributor in my hand. It takes a little time but finding that sweet spot is worth all the efforts.
Once the gap is set than it's onward to the point cam/timing setting, taking out the 'slop' and that my friends is an art and an exersize in frustration. I can only tell if I have it dead nuts by running the engine and with full retard to generate that lope of 1-3-4-2 that no other engine has.
skip.
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