Stuck motor update
- Thread starter nhusa
- Start date
Smurkey
Senior Member
I would bet the contact surfaces of the babbitt would be rust free. The surfaces that look bad, in my opinion, are mainly cosmetic. Looks bad, definitely needs to be cleaned out, but probably isn't lawn art just yet. I would take everything out and label it as far as which cylinder/orientation it came from, steel wool/kerosene it, and put it back together with some assembly lube and give it a shot.
That's the "cheap" way anyhow...
That's the "cheap" way anyhow...
Tom Wesenberg
Well-known member
Holy smokes!
How and where was that engine kept to get so much rust inside?
Don't turn or force anything. It needs to come out of the car and get torn down to clean all the rust off. You'll need some small wire brushes and cleaning solvent. I use gas or diesel, then when I think the parts are clean I use my air compressor and syphon sprayer with gas to flush all the loose stuff away. You need to clean all the metal parts including valves, tappets, cam, gears, crankshaft, rods, rings pistons, etc. You should also give the cylinders a light hone to get rid of any rust. Make sure the valve seats are also rust free.
With a lot of care and cleaning you might get lucky and save the babbit.
How and where was that engine kept to get so much rust inside?Don't turn or force anything. It needs to come out of the car and get torn down to clean all the rust off. You'll need some small wire brushes and cleaning solvent. I use gas or diesel, then when I think the parts are clean I use my air compressor and syphon sprayer with gas to flush all the loose stuff away. You need to clean all the metal parts including valves, tappets, cam, gears, crankshaft, rods, rings pistons, etc. You should also give the cylinders a light hone to get rid of any rust. Make sure the valve seats are also rust free.
With a lot of care and cleaning you might get lucky and save the babbit.
tbirdtbird
BANNED
so far Herm's comments have gone over everyone's head
nhusa
Well-known member
I think that most folks are saying -
"Take the motor out of the car and take it apart without making it rotate" At this point I agree, so that is the plan.
I don't know why the A looks so bad when the T that was parked next to it in the Barn for the same time period (45 years) had none of these problems.
I spent yesterday moving things in the garage so I will have room for the motor and a motor stand that will come from Harbor Freight.
I also crawled under the car again and wiped a few places to see if the red would come off easily. Some of the red is the MMO/Auto fluid and some is rust. I hope Tom is right and the babbit can be saved! I am not sure about the cam because the surface looked a bit poor but I was on my back and it was hard to see with bifocals
Since this has turned into a major project I am still looking for answers to my earlier question --
What is the current thinking on making a reliable fun driver that doesn't have to be a super fast or powerful hot rod? In the T world it would consist of SS valves, aluminum pistons, Kevlar bands, and a decent rebuild but I don't know about the A.
Sorry I have more questions -
I may be in over my head on this due to the extent of work that needs to be done on the motor (cleaning everything, replace cam, lifters, cam gear, pistons/rings, maybe crank and babbit, water pump, oil pump, etc.)
What would you do?
My complete, rebuilt, drop in, running, backup, T motor that included the upgrades on the above list plus the starter, generator, manifolds, carburetor, new bushings in the trans, new rear main, etc. (and it ran on the mag) cost about $2500 -
Are short or long blocks A motors available?
Where and how much is a fair price?
"Take the motor out of the car and take it apart without making it rotate" At this point I agree, so that is the plan.
I don't know why the A looks so bad when the T that was parked next to it in the Barn for the same time period (45 years) had none of these problems.
I spent yesterday moving things in the garage so I will have room for the motor and a motor stand that will come from Harbor Freight.
I also crawled under the car again and wiped a few places to see if the red would come off easily. Some of the red is the MMO/Auto fluid and some is rust. I hope Tom is right and the babbit can be saved! I am not sure about the cam because the surface looked a bit poor but I was on my back and it was hard to see with bifocals
Since this has turned into a major project I am still looking for answers to my earlier question --
What is the current thinking on making a reliable fun driver that doesn't have to be a super fast or powerful hot rod? In the T world it would consist of SS valves, aluminum pistons, Kevlar bands, and a decent rebuild but I don't know about the A.
Sorry I have more questions -
I may be in over my head on this due to the extent of work that needs to be done on the motor (cleaning everything, replace cam, lifters, cam gear, pistons/rings, maybe crank and babbit, water pump, oil pump, etc.)
What would you do?
My complete, rebuilt, drop in, running, backup, T motor that included the upgrades on the above list plus the starter, generator, manifolds, carburetor, new bushings in the trans, new rear main, etc. (and it ran on the mag) cost about $2500 -
Are short or long blocks A motors available?
Where and how much is a fair price?
Mike V. Florida
Well-known member
A stock engine will give you "...a reliable fun driver".
Tom Wesenberg
Well-known member
"I don't know why the A looks so bad when the T that was parked next to it in the Barn for the same time period (45 years) had none of these problems."
Did the Model A leak water into the crankcase?
I would do a complete teardown first, then post pictures of the parts to help decide the next course of action.
Hope for the best, but expect the worst.
Did the Model A leak water into the crankcase?
I would do a complete teardown first, then post pictures of the parts to help decide the next course of action.
Hope for the best, but expect the worst.
nhusa
Well-known member
No water came out when I drained the oil and it was not white like mayonnaise.
It flowed very slowly at first and then went faster as the MMO began to drain.
The T had antifreeze in the radiator but the bottom radiator hose on the A was disconnected.
I figured that dad did that just to drain the system, but it is possible that a water problem actually sidelined the car.
The top of the motor showed no sign of a head gasket failure and the bores looked good. There was a bit of red sludge / rust near the valves on the #2 and #4 cylinder (behind the valve cover) so maybe it leaked into the crankcase from the valve area. I'll have to take a closer look at the deck near the valve seats.
It flowed very slowly at first and then went faster as the MMO began to drain.
The T had antifreeze in the radiator but the bottom radiator hose on the A was disconnected.
I figured that dad did that just to drain the system, but it is possible that a water problem actually sidelined the car.
The top of the motor showed no sign of a head gasket failure and the bores looked good. There was a bit of red sludge / rust near the valves on the #2 and #4 cylinder (behind the valve cover) so maybe it leaked into the crankcase from the valve area. I'll have to take a closer look at the deck near the valve seats.
Bob/Kansas City
Senior Member
Why not just pull that engine and look for a good running motor on Craigs List, E Bay, Ford Barn swap meet section or just ask around at a local Model A club. They seem to come up fairly often. This way you may be able to make a decent driver out of the car without investing big bucks.
Once the engine is out you can check the condition of the clutch and flywheel etc.
I think Mr. Kohnke's remarks are right on in that an attempt to start that motor will ruin it if it isn't already.
Once the engine is out you can check the condition of the clutch and flywheel etc.
I think Mr. Kohnke's remarks are right on in that an attempt to start that motor will ruin it if it isn't already.
nhusa
Well-known member
Bob/KS
You are right!
I am going to Harbor Freight today to get a motor stand (I have a 20% off coupon!) and will pull the motor. I'll try to not spend my lunch money on other incidentals but know that it is hard to go to the "candy store" and not fill the bag.
In the meantime I am looking for a "good running" motor to put in the car until I figure things out. I searched the forum swap, local Craig's lists, and eBay without success so I'll have to be patient --
Any leads to a motor - hum "good running" motor will be appreciated.
You are right!
I am going to Harbor Freight today to get a motor stand (I have a 20% off coupon!) and will pull the motor. I'll try to not spend my lunch money on other incidentals
but know that it is hard to go to the "candy store" and not fill the bag.In the meantime I am looking for a "good running" motor to put in the car until I figure things out. I searched the forum swap, local Craig's lists, and eBay without success so I'll have to be patient --
Any leads to a motor - hum "good running" motor will be appreciated.
Joe K
Well-known member
Amherst, NH holds their first Monthly "Antique Automobile Flea Market" on Sunday April 27th. Will be held monthly thereafter the last Sunday of the month until late October.
Check out "Honest John" Bradley when you're there. Ask ANYONE where Honest John is and they'll know. He's as much an institution there as the Flea Market is itself.
A warning though. Your best deal with Honest John will be your first. Anything thereafter will be increasing levels of "overhead" - until you find his pricing a little exhorbitant.
Not to critique. Honest John is a businessman first and your friend second - but he is very much a supporter of the hobby. And he's very pleased to be able to help someone new.
He is starting to "wind down" his activities. He's now at the point where he's "dabbling" having retired from a living servicing and restoring Model A's.
This from a couple of years ago. I saw him last spring there, spoke briefly about one '30 wheel he had for sale ($20 with tire and air - how can you beat that? I wish I had bought!) but didn't shmoose.
We talked briefly about a "real good" model a engine - complete except for transmission - which had a nicely repaired crack in the water jacket - you would NEVER know it was there it was that good. He wanted $450 for it. He thought about 3K miles on it after rebuild - this engine what was left over after some "warranty" work by him. (as he says, it's hard to know the condition of an engine's water jackets - even after putting $2200 into a complete rebuild.)
This the sort of thing your first deal with John can be.
Like my $5 29 steering column with the dent in it.
Good luck.
http://www.cruisingamherstnhauto.com/
Get there early - like 4 a.m. The flea market is basically OVER by 11 a.m.
I've literally seen people packing up to go at 9 a.m. Probably to another flea market somewhere that begins at 10 a.m.
Joe K
Check out "Honest John" Bradley when you're there. Ask ANYONE where Honest John is and they'll know. He's as much an institution there as the Flea Market is itself.
A warning though. Your best deal with Honest John will be your first. Anything thereafter will be increasing levels of "overhead" - until you find his pricing a little exhorbitant.
Not to critique. Honest John is a businessman first and your friend second - but he is very much a supporter of the hobby. And he's very pleased to be able to help someone new.
He is starting to "wind down" his activities. He's now at the point where he's "dabbling" having retired from a living servicing and restoring Model A's.
This from a couple of years ago. I saw him last spring there, spoke briefly about one '30 wheel he had for sale ($20 with tire and air - how can you beat that? I wish I had bought!) but didn't shmoose.
We talked briefly about a "real good" model a engine - complete except for transmission - which had a nicely repaired crack in the water jacket - you would NEVER know it was there it was that good. He wanted $450 for it. He thought about 3K miles on it after rebuild - this engine what was left over after some "warranty" work by him. (as he says, it's hard to know the condition of an engine's water jackets - even after putting $2200 into a complete rebuild.)
This the sort of thing your first deal with John can be.
Like my $5 29 steering column with the dent in it.
Good luck.
http://www.cruisingamherstnhauto.com/
Get there early - like 4 a.m. The flea market is basically OVER by 11 a.m.
I've literally seen people packing up to go at 9 a.m. Probably to another flea market somewhere that begins at 10 a.m.
Joe K
Last edited:
nhusa
Well-known member
Joe Thanks for the Amherst - Honest John lead.
I use Amherst and Lang when I need expensive Model T parts to save Mass tax and shipping. I let Don know what I want - put it on my credit card and pick it up. Last year I saved about $60 on tires for my T After picking them up I rushed home dragged the T out of the garage and won first in class at a local car show.
I use Amherst and Lang when I need expensive Model T parts to save Mass tax and shipping. I let Don know what I want - put it on my credit card and pick it up. Last year I saved about $60 on tires for my T After picking them up I rushed home dragged the T out of the garage and won first in class at a local car show.