STARTER (not starting) problems

dfclimber

dfclimber

Member
Went to start the A today and initially starter spun strong. I pulled it back down as I forgot to turn on the gas (I run it dry after each use). I tried to again start it and nothing. No starter spin/engagement, no sounds , nothing. I DO NOT HAVE FUSE ON STARTER

Lights worked fine (and did not dim) when I raised the retard the start level to start her
Charged the battery for a few hours-nothing
I tried adding a jumper cable from ground to a bell housing bolt to rule out a bad ground
Used volt meter at the starter cable and there is voltage and it does not drop when starter level moved manually.
Tried the rocking maneuver in 3rd grear written about on this site and (what to do when A stops running)- nothing
ROLL STARTED HER AND SHE RUNS FINE -but after driving in both forward and reverse ---STILL NO STARTER SPIN.

Suggestions?
 
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Step on the starter button, instead of the throttle foot rest.:D
Just kidding, but it has happened, as posted on this site.

Connect a volt meter to the starter body and switch terminal and read the voltage while pushing the switch down. Let us know what you read and we can go further.
 
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Remove starter hook up to batt charger set at six volts see if it turns! Cables good and tight? maybe an interior starter problem? Did the rod disconnect from the starter?
 
UPDATE ON THE STARTER ISSUE

1. Confirmed 6.8v flowing in starter cable and good ground

2. Removing the starter switch from the starter and applied current to the copper starter contact (bypassing switch)- NOTHING

3. Applied current to the starter and measured voltage from between contact and starter body/housing- 6.8v- I THINK THIS MEANS INTERNAL SHORT- ie FRIED STARTER ???????

What should I do next.......
 
do I have to remove the starter to evaluate the brushes or just remove the end band and look inside.
I have Andrews vol1 but if there are other good links or recommendations from others - PLEASE POST THEM. (My 6 year old is getting tired of helping me push start her)
 
You can't see all 4 brushes very well unless you remove the starter. It's only 3 bolts, and it's so much nicer to check when it's on the bench.

Normally the only way the armature or fields go bad on a starter is by cranking for long periods of time, or jumping with too high a voltage. My guess is you have worn brushes. The ground pair usually wear out first and are very easy to change. If the other pair still have a lot of use I'd just leave them. If the insulated pair need to be changed, then you need a good sized soldering gun or iron. I use a WEN 250 for this job.
 
I know you said you tried rocking it, but I'd suggest trying that again. Make sure it turns the engine when you push it. These starters are almost bomb-proof, and I wouldn't rule it out. But I always try the easy things first.
 
WELL.
3 bolts and remove that was easy.
Pulled the thing completely apart and IT IS NEVER GOING BACK TOGETHER .

-Spun smoothly by hand - not seized
-There is electrical continuity from the starter contact point to the fields internally (but there is a fair amount of rust.
-All the brushes are plenty thick and all springs strong
- Armature and Commutator are all bright and smooth
-I have not the foggiest idea how to trouble shoot the thing.
and I don't want to order parts rebuild the thing a half a dozen times only to bench test it and find out it is pulling too many amps
Think is time to buy a rebuilt one- UNLESS someome advises me otherwise.
 
Someone near you can put the armature on a growler and test the fields. If you put the battery cable directly on the starter contact and got NO spark, then the brushes must not have been sending current through. You said the lights didn't dim and the voltage at the starter switch stayed the same, so that tells me no current flowed through the starter. It must be a simple problem inside the starter. Are the field coil ends soldered to the copper contact nice and solid?
 
Tom,
Thanks for your info. There was a CRACK in the solder where the 2 sides of the fields come together. They did not seem to wiggle at all, but maybe resoldering this area could help.
I will certainly try this before getting a rebuilt unit
Thanks for the help
 
The current flows from the contact through the two field windings, into the two insulated brushes, through the armature and back to ground through the two ground brushes, so the path is easy to trace to see where the bad connection is.
 
from the original post, it sounds like he might have a "sparky start" (off the timing lever). I would have have just removed the starter, taken the starter switch off, and started there. Could be as simple as no contact on the starter post....
 
Tom-
Thanks for the description of the current flow pathway- I wonder if there was a short between the insulated brush wires to the housing as the insulation looked an old degraded brown paper bag or some other degraded form of insulation. To my family's recollection starter has not been changed in more than 40 years (if that is possible).

Jim- I do have a sparky start and I did take off the switch (bypassed the switch) and tried to jumping directly from battery.
 
Tom offered you great advise. Using a hook tool you can pull up the brush springs and move them to the side so that you can pull the brushes out of the brush holder. At this point use Q-tips dipped in a solvent, like paint thinner, to clean the brush holders and brushes. I think you have an open circuit, not a short. With the insulated brushes out of their brush holders and not touching any metal, you can check for continunity through the field coils buy measuring resistance between the 2 insulated brushes, you should read 3-4 ohms. Then measure from one brush to the starter housing and that should be an open circuit. If these 2 tests check out OK your field coils are good. Reinstall the 4 brushes and check the starter using jumper cables connected to a 6 volt battery, connect the positive to the mounting end plate place your foot on the starter housing and touch the other jumper cable to the copper button to see if the starter will run.
Good luck.
 
Herb,

I have the starter COMPLETELY apart.
All solder points are strong.
I have cleaned the armature/commutator with electrical parts cleaner (it was covered with some grease)
Brushed were cleaned and there was some pitting of one of the ground starter brushes which was cleaned up/sanded a bit.

There is 4ohms from brush to brush and from starter point to brush and no continuity to the body (while all apart)

- The 4 large magnets look a bit rough and rusty- SHOULD I REMOVE THESES TO CLEAN THE SURFACES OR IS THE SURFACE IRRELEVANT as they are there to create the field

Next step - I will assemble and bench test.
 
Those field pole shoes are extremely tight and take special equipment most times to get the screws out, and to get them back in tight enough.

Just reach in with some sandpaper and clean them off a bit. As long as the armature doesn't rub on them they are fine.

Actually with the very thick field windings and single heavy armature winding, you should show zero ohms for all practical purposes. Remember that the starter draws 100 amps or a little more while cranking the engine, so that means you have very little resistance in the circuit.
 
A good tool to lift the brush springs isto take an old choke cable & cut the inner cable an inch or so from the knob end & bend the inner wire at 90*.It works well to lift the spring for brush removal.When putting starter together,sand till shiny the mounting surfaces of the end plates & field frame as well as starter mounting surfaces.It is important to have the best grounds possible.
 
Chief's quick OKIE test: When you have NO, NADA, NOTHING from the starter, hold starter button down and rap the starter with a medium blow with a 48 OZ hammer. If it starts working, the problem is definately INSIDE the starter. Maybe as simple as worn out brushes or a tricky internal connection. This "TEST" can be used on ANY starter. Bill W.
 
Thanks for all the info so far but, ITS BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD.

With everything put back together except the ground brushes THERE IS NOW CONTINUITY between the starter copper contact and the body, that was NOT there before reinstalling the armature. (IE brushes and fields were isolated from the case before installing the armiture)
HOW IS THE SHAFT suppose to be electrically isolated from the case - the Bronze Bushings
 
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