Seized Driveline 1938

[Hoop]

Quite a bit of good advice so far, but some nagging questions still remain.

While a 1938 has been indicated, we are not really sure exactly which shifter we are working with. I have found the earlier 68- housing with the later 91A- fork ... and the later 81A- housing with the 68- fork.

In fact, are we really sure that we are dealing with a 1938 transmission?

The difference, as it applies to this situation, is that the 81A housing has an extra sliding "bullet" in the center between the detents. This prevents the shift rails from both moving out of the neutral position at the same time. Earlier housings did not have this safeguard.

To fix this (if we have a 68- shifter) find an 81A- housing and install the 68- fork. The worst thing is that you end up with a highly desirable 91A- fork that you can save or sell. (This idea will help dry up the supply of 81A- housings even further ... )

One other nagging issue is what may have happened to the rear end. I just ran into a situation where the transmission jammed and SUPPOSEDLY shucked a few teeth off the ring gear. Have not seen the damage myself, but could happen. Checking the rear would, of course, be a good idea.

 

[DICK SPADARO]

I have been following this post for a while and do not believe this is a transmission issue. If your tires locked up the problem is in the drive line, rear end or upper driveshaft support bearing. The diagnoses to pop the trans cover was correct, this will expose the gears to determine if there is any trans damage. Since you were not speed shifting your trans chances of a jambed gear are slim. Since the trans is locked in gear there is some thing internal in the drive line that is appling pressure to the driveshaft so that it has loaded the trans gear and prevents it from disengaging. The next step is to split the torque tube collar and drop the rear axle assembly down and back. Removing the drive shaft from the U-joint will now allow you to check the drive line for any binds. My inclination is that there is an issue with the rear end or you have seized up the upper drive shaft bearing from lack of lubrication. This is a problem if you drive longer distances with lack of lubrication and assumed that chassis grease is good enough to lube the U-joint and upper roller bearing. A sign of upper bearing failure can be determined by removing the speedo gear turtle and looking for signs of metallic particles in the lube around the speed o gear.

 

[George/Maine]

The first thing I would do is jackup each wheel ,one at time and see if they turn.The chipped rear shaft does,nt look good you may have siezed the main shaft and rear shaft but it should still move the car,or 2nd gear is siezed to shaft.My guess its the trans.

 

[andyleonard]

Assuming the rear end has been eliminated.....I suspect the shifter housing & forks are not functioning properly. Your 38 shifter tower (#68-7222 casting) has a single detent spring with 2 plungers. All 3 components are located in-between the two shifter rails. I would get the housing apart and have a look at these parts. The two forks are pinned to their respective shifter rail (shafts) with steel pins. The attached pic shows what it should look like inside. The pic description says 1936-37 but it was used into 1939.

That looks right. To my knowledge this car has never been apart.

 

[Mart]

Andy seems to be indicating that things freed up once he started sliding the gears about.
Which would seem to indicate two gears at once, due to a sloppy shifter and inadequate lockout mechanism in the earlier shifter.

Andy, can you please confirm that the car would not roll, and is now able to roll freely once you moved the gears?

This would rule out any conjecture about the diff or driveshaft bearings or the rear bearing in the trans.

Andy, do you have access to any spare parts, either yourself or a pal nearby? You could try another shifter mechanism on your box. As stated above, the later twin detent housing is the best, and is available with the correct fork to suit the earlier gearset - 39 standards and pickups had them, I believe. If you could snag one of those, that would be an upgrade for the trans and better peace of mind for you.

Good luck with it.

Mart.

 

[andyleonard]

Andy seems to be indicating that things freed up once he started sliding the gears about.
Which would seem to indicate two gears at once, due to a sloppy shifter and inadequate lockout mechanism in the earlier shifter.

Andy, can you please confirm that the car would not roll, and is now able to roll freely once you moved the gears?

This would rule out any conjecture about the diff or driveshaft bearings or the rear bearing in the trans.

Andy, do you have access to any spare parts, either yourself or a pal nearby? You could try another shifter mechanism on your box. As stated above, the later twin detent housing is the best, and is available with the correct fork to suit the earlier gearset - 39 standards and pickups had them, I believe. If you could snag one of those, that would be an upgrade for the trans and better peace of mind for you.

Good luck with it.

Mart.

Yes. Car freed up after diddling 2nd/3rd slider and 1st/reverse gear with a hammer handle. I have run the engine with the cover off and all gears operate correctly. Here's a picture of the shifter. I'm going to drain the box and make sure all the teeth are there and look for junk in the sump. If I don't find anything, I'm going to bolt it up and run it up and down the road.

 

[andyleonard]

Drained the trans sump and rinsed with mineral spirits. Counted all the teeth. All present and all good except the nose of the rear shaft. Dried it out - no metal in drain oil or in rinse - and refilled with 80/90 and a liberal dose of Lucas. Runs and shifts normally, with the exception of 2nd being crunchy, probably because of the Lucas.

I remain mystified. The chips on the nose of the rear shaft - shown in my earlier picture - are worse on the other side of the gearset and how and when they got chipped and where the chips went remains a mystery. Unless there's a magnet inside somewhere, there are no chips to be found and I haven't found anything that might have jammed the gearset. Which leaves a seized something to account for the lockup.

What I don't like is the amount of up and down play on the whole assembly, as if the front input bearing/bushing? is worn, allowing the front shaft and the rear shaft to get out of alignment with each other and perhaps chip the rear teeth due to contact with the hard thrust washer on the front shaft? If you rock a rear wheel back and forth in gear and watch the cluster, there's too much movement for my eye. Maybe it's a bushing and I'm used to bearings, but still...I'll study the drawings, but it seems the box needs to come out and get freshened up.

Thanks for all the help. I'll post when someone smart has it torn down.

 

[Mac VP]

It's normal for the input shaft to have a little "wiggle" from its front tip. It's hard to describe what I'm saying but if the shaft could be moved up and down...let's say 1/4" for example....that would be TOO much. A lot of this kind of movement suggests that the roller bearing (that fits in the backside of the input shaft/gear and holds the front of the output shaft) could be damaged or worse...missing?? This would also account for the weird feel when shifting into second gear.

Your output shaft was mfr'd by Ford with the various "chips" you see at the front of the spiral splines. This was intentional. There should be 4 or 5 of these (not where I can look at one to count) on the shaft.....all equally spaced and sized. Ford changed all that with the 1939 and newer shafts, doing away with those cutoff sections.

I strongly urge you to get the trans properly inspected. Worn or damaged parts....or mis-matched gears/parts will not be friendly to you. We do ****** rebuilding here but you can find other shops around the country who are competent as well.

 

[andyleonard]

Thanks Mac. The damage to the nose of the rear shaft cannot be intentional. There's nothing organized about it. I like the idea of a bearing coming apart inside there. That would account for both the chipping and the wobble. Time for a teardown. How much freight do I need to get this to you? Or who should do it in the Los Angeles area?

 

[David J]

Re: Siezed Driveline 1938

The attached shaft pic was liberated from epay and is NOS . Look familiar ? Danliveshere had the same question a few months back . If you look carefully you will see why the " chips " are there .

If your talking about the splined shaft the missing segments are supposed to look like that . It's caused by the various machining processes

 

[andyleonard]

Mine is damaged well beyond what is shown in that and in my own posted picture. There's a chunk missing that looks like it was scooped out with a fingernail and you can see the rough metal underneath.

On the other hand, I'm wondering if my shaft has broken clean through at the chip area, as that's where the wobble is.

 

[David J]

Sounds like you could use the NOS shaft . Item # 150637859440 . If yours is indeed broken in two please post pics of it as I don't recall ever seeing that B4 . Time to remove ****** .

Mine is damaged well beyond what is shown in that and in my own posted picture. There's a chunk missing that looks like it was scooped out with a fingernail and you can see the rough metal underneath.

On the other hand, I'm wondering if my shaft has broken clean through at the chip area, as that's where the wobble is.

 

[rotorwrench]

Whatever manufacturer cut those shafts were using fairly large diameter cutters and they will overlap some of the other splines during the cutting process. Some of the larger cut items do sometimes look like they were whittled with a fire axe. Mac VanPelt could tell you pretty quick if it was damage or original tool cutter markings on that main shaft. Like he mentioned, they look to be damage when in fact they are from the factory that way. A good photo of the part when removed would comfirm Ya or Na.

 

[Mart]

I snapped one of those shafts once.

Mart.