Rebuilt Flathead Problems.

[GordonC]

Guys thank you for the suggestions and the encouragement it really helps. I was depressed as hell when this thing wouldn't fire but considering all I/We are finding wrong with it I am most thankful it didn't!

Just so we are all singing the same song, I will pull the pan. I will see if I can get the crank gear off and either turn it or replace it and reset the cam timing correctly. While I am looking at the lower end I will check to see if there are areas I need to be concerned about. While I am doing that I will pull the heads and pull the valves and do whatever I need to do to use the valves I have. The seats are new, the valves are new, the lifters are new, the guides are new, the springs are from a 1950's 8ba. May or may not have been original to that engine. I may have other used ones in my stash but these looked to be the best of what I had. I'll do whatever needs to be done to correct their geometry and put them back into the same cylinders they came out of and relap them. I will use all new gaskets and reassemble it. Sound like a plan? Have I missed anything?

Only problem is all of this has to wait until after my trip.

 

[Flathead Fever]

Flathead Fever the timing light check will not tell you if the distributor is wiried 180 out. It's an easy check to remove the cap and check the rotor position.

You bring up a good point that I should have mentioned. No the timing light will not tell you if you are 180 degrees out or if someone installed a timing gear in the wrong position but if the timing gears are correct and you put your finger over #1 and bring the piston up on the compression stroke. I don't see how your going to put the distributer in 180 degrees off especially if you can see that #1 cast into the distributor cap. What a lot of people will do is to have the distributer rotated one way or the other a little and get the distributer off one tooth and then it won't start, or it will try to start but backfire or will start but they will not be able to rotate the distributer far enough to set the timing in one of the directions. I was assuming the distributer was installed correctly or close to being correct. Your just using the timing light to set the timing while cranking to get it close enough to start and also verifying you have enough rotation in the distributer to advance and retard the timing for the final adjustment once its running. You could do the same thing by lining up the timing marks and setting the points to where they just break contact which you can verify with a continuity tester.

It does not apply here but we use to have ignition modules fail. There would be all kinds of spark, fuel and compression but the engine would not run. When the modules failed for some reason they were able to produce a nice hot blue spark but not deliver it at the proper timing. That's where the timing light came in handy to check the timing while cranking. If the timing mark was no where in sight there was a good chance the module had some kind of a stroke. Its just another tool to try when your going nuts trying to figure out a weird problem. They never break the way the shop manual says they will!

 

[Mart]

Thanks for confirming what I suspected, Guys.

Mart.

 

[GordonC]

Ok guys holiday stuff is over and it's time to get back to business. Now that the temps are a little better in the garage I started pulling everything off the motor in preparation for pulling it out of the chassis and setting it up on an engine stand so I can get good access to everything. Here is a picture of it. I am going to pull it Mon.

Also just for shits and grins I pulled an old 3 3/4" crank I had and decided to see how hard it was to remove the timing gear. I heated the gear with a propane torch and hit from the backside with a drift and heavy hammer. It came off pretty easily after a half dozen whacks so I am hoping the same is true for the one in the motor!

 

[tubman]

Welcome back, Gordon! I am quite curious to see how this turns out.

 

[George/Maine]

I think you are wasting your time on tearing down when the gear was the problem.
When you put the gear on good to have slip on.
This will give you better lineup of gears then replace the key way.

 

[JSeery]

Believe he has multiple issues he is attempting to address and it is easier to work on out of the chassis.

 

[GordonC]

Thank you guys for the welcome back. I do have more than just the gear issue to deal with and it will be easier to keep the rest of the chassis and body in as new a condition as I can by doing this work out of the chassis. Temps will be in the low 40's next couple of days but I'm hoping to get the engine up onto the stand so I can start by pulling the pan. The pan gaskets at the front where the timing cover bolts on got pulled up when I pulled the timing cover so I at least need to replace the pan gaskets along with fixing the gear. Once that is done I need to check into my valves to see what is up with the springs.

 

[Bored&Stroked]

Welcome back Gordon - I think you have a good plan and it will be much easier and a better situation to check the whole thing out on the engine stand. If you have any issues, feel free to check back - you can ping me via a PM if needed. Good luck!

 

[GordonC]

Thanks guys! Just need a little bit of time in my schedule. I promise to grab pics of whatever I'm doing when I get to it.

 

[George/Maine]

See if the gear is on backwards and if dot was there.

 

[GordonC]

Will do George.

 

[GordonC]

Ok boys I know you have all been waiting for an update so here goes.

I pulled the motor out of the car and set it up on a stand I have. Also supported the crank at the front with a little tool I made just for that job. I just get all jumpy with that lump hanging there by 4 bolts! Rolled it over and removed the pan. Once it was done pissing its remaining fluids all over the floor I wiped everything down and cleaned it all up then hit everything with some marvel mystery oil so rust won't get a chance to set in. Just for giggles I stuck two large screw drivers down by the backside of the timing gear as shown and tapped them down into position which put pressure on the gear slightly and it started to move! I'll be dipped in what makes the grass grow green! I didn't even have to put any heat to it, cuss, throw tools around the shop, or anything! Just kept tapping lightly and the screw drivers worked their way down and pushed the gear off the front of the crank. What a relief! Ok for those that are still here the gear WAS on backwards and the timing mark was on what was the backside. Once the old gear was off I cleaned up the snout of the crank, greased it up and tapped the new gear into place. So, I now have a new crank gear with the timing dot on the outside like it should be. Now to button up the lower end as everything looks pretty good down below. Then turn the cam into position so I can get the 4 bolts in the timing gear to line up and the timing mark to match the crank mark. Once that is in position I can bolt the aluminum cam gear back on and reinstall the timing cover. Got new bolts and keeper for that as well.

After that its on to the valve assemblies to see what needs to be addressed there.

Oh, I was wondering should I pull the studs and reseal them while I have it apart? I did have a few that were dripping a little antifreeze when I had the cooling system full. Not having had a chance to heat cycle and torque everything I wasn't too worried about it at the time.

 

[Bob C]

How come that gear looks rusty and a little pitted??

Bob

 

[GordonC]

Bob,

Are you referring to the one I pulled? If so that was a used crank that I had which was out of the engine it came from and sat in the shop before it got installed. It has a little flash rust on it.

The other gear is a brand new Offenhauser gear from Speedway.

 

[pooch]

Prob too late now if you have put the pan back on, but you could have done an easy quick check on the mains and big ends if you did not have any plastigauge.

I would have pulled the front main cap and put a piece of copy paper about 1/2 wide across the crank and torqued the cap back down.

The crank should not move or be very tight.

Remove it.

Then do the same with at least one big end.

This gives you some idea what the guy before did as to clearances.

 

[GordonC]

Pooch I don't have any plastigage but can get some. The pan isn't back on just yet and I can go as far into this as I need to.

 

[tubman]

If you still have the pan off, I agree with "Pooch" on this. I did it on the used Merc I put in my '51 and it was nice to know everything was up to spec.

 

[GordonC]

OK! Heres another update. I pulled all the valve assemblies which made the cam a whole lot easier to turn. I then put the cam gear over the snout of the cam with the cam timing mark lined up on the crank gear timing mark. I then turned the cam behind it until I could get the 4 bolt holes to line up with the cam and turn the bolts into their holes easily by hand. Do I need to do anything else other than pull the bolts and put the keeper on it? IN other words is there ANY way this can bolt together other than how it has? I don't like rework and want to make sure it is correct this time.

Also for those that suggested it I got some plastigauge and checked the clearance on 1 of the mains and it was at .002. I checked 1 of the rods as well and the clearance on that was .003. Help me understand if these are good numbers or not? The rods and crank were used but everything else was new.

Last is a picture of the valve assemblies as they were removed. I have done nothing to them yet so need to know what I need to do here. I measured the valves length and they are anywhere from 4.865 to 4.905. What should this length be? I have a reground cam and adjustable lifters. All springs as installed measured approximately 1.900. Some were a little less some were a little more but that was the average from what I could tell. Gary in NY you called this out from something you saw in one of my previous pictures so is there anything you can suggest that I do to move forward on those.

As always, all help appreciated guys.

 

[tubman]

It sounds to me like you are doing everything you should. The bottom-end clearances seem to be within spec, you should be good to go once you get the valves sorted out. You weren't clear; was the cam out of time or not?