Rain gutters Help!

[willowbilly3]

I don't think I ever bought a shiny repainted car that I didn't find serious issues to crop up later. Most body men, especially those fixing up cars to sell, are hacks IMO. Now I only buy and driver original paint (patina) cars and not only enjoy them more but never find those little disappointing surprises packed in bondo.

 

[Dave Covey]

Man Dave, I can relate to that, lol.

On mine, both sides of the roof roughly 14-18 inches long rusted thru, front had two places 2-4 inches long, above the back glass 3 molding clip holes rusted out, and on the passenger side above the back glass for 12+ inches rusted thru.
Previous owner did nothing to prevent rust for the sides and front, but on the rear he did squirt some glue/caulk along the molding. But only where the leak seemed to be coming from...

I made a wooden buck to create a curved patch panel that had the gutter folded to match. Cut about 1 inch up on the roof and cut out the outer layer of the gutter. Pain in the rear but worked out OK. I've already epoxy primered it after the "bondo" work and primer again I'll seam seal with a self leveling sealer and paint.

Since the gutter patches I bought a shrinker/streacher to make the gutters for the trunk opening. Lot easier and better looking..

Enjoy trading experiences, fixes with you guys.

Dave

 

[Dave Covey]

dmsfrr, Good thread/info on sand blasting.

I specifically looked for a "dustless blaster" to do mine. Mainly because they bring their equipment to your shop and do it there. The guy did mine at less than 80# pressure and I asked him to keep a shallow angle to the work to specifically prevent any warping I watched him for a bit but not constantly. I don't think he hurt the top cause every place that I'll have to work looks like someone took a body hammer to it to knock the high spots down. The trunk however has low spots mostly in the openings in the inner bracing. I worked them for a while last night trying to figure out what to do. Ended up using heat. I was thinking shrinking them. But that didn't work. Instead of heating and then quenching them I heated until I saw the metal raise and then let it air cool. I kept doing that and running a long sanding block until I had them raised. Not perfect but when I get finished I think it can be body worked .

Dave

 

[Daves55Sedan]

I give you a lot of credit for doing that with the window and guess the headliner still in the car nice job

I did not touch the headliner. I did have a fear that the headliner might catch on fire during the welding process, but it suffered no damage at all. I did cover the top trim strip and window with rubber to make sure that if any molten metal popped, it would not fall on the glass and damage it or the trim. That little side piece of trim was removed so I could clean out the rain gutter along there and weld the new metal piece in place.

 

[Daves55Sedan]

Cut about 1 inch up on the roof and cut out the outer layer of the gutter.

I pondered just going ahead and cutting off the outer gutter riser where the hole was, as it would have actually been easier to cut out a new metal piece and bend it up so that the bottom and riser would be new, but I feared that I would not be able to duplicate the contour of the original gutter riser especially at the weld spots on the outside. I decided against it, but later regretted it since the position I had to take to weld the gutter bottom piece from underneath hurt my back for a day afterward. At some point in my old age I must need to come to realize that I can't be doing stuff like this anymore.

 

[Dave Covey]

the position I had to take to weld the gutter bottom piece from underneath hurt my back for a day afterward. At some point in my old age I must need to come to realize that I can't be doing stuff like this anymore.

I have the same problems. Sitting on a rolling stool while working on the deck lid for a couple hours and my back has been hurting for 3 days now.

I have my car on a rotisserie so I can roll it around till I get it in a more comfortable position to work on. Right now I'm jumping around and doing what body work I can without screwing it up. I have to get a good body man to come out and take a look at the quarter panels and give me some advice on how to straighten them out. Heat done a lot of warping when I welded them on especially the area just behind the door opening.

I am enjoying working on it though. The wife has to come get me in the evenings as I lose track of time..lol

Dave

 

[Daves55Sedan]

I have to get a good body man to come out and take a look at the quarter panels and give me some advice on how to straighten them out. Heat done a lot of warping when I welded them on

ALL of my welding work is being done with a MillerMatic model 130 Mig welder (because heat is definitely an issue when joining 18 gage sheet metal). In fact, I have the wire speed turned down to minimum and the voltage output turned down to minimum. I have the gas pressure regulator set to around 7 PSI. Even with these settings you can experience a burn thru if you are not careful especially in spots that are difficult to target using a mig welding tip. But there's nothing you can do about it but fill in with more metal.
I did notice an area that was bowed outward where the new section of outer rear quarter met with the cutout, but it happened because I had pushed a shim behind it too far down (to hold the new piece in place for welding). I didn't realize it till it was too late and it was all welded. It is solid as a rock. It will just have to be a little bowed. You don't notice it unless you hold a straightedge up against it, so I am leaving it alone. You will see this and much more in an upcoming post under different title.

 

[Dave Covey]

My mig is a Miller 180, and I alternated between using mig or tig depending on what I was welding. The theory is mig is what body shops use but it's said that mig weld is a harder weld than tig or gas. I can make a pretty tig weld on the thin metal and control the heat better but it is a lot slower.

I did a lot of research and asked a lot of questions before starting on the quarter panel replacement but they still moved a lot. Probably going to cost more to straighten my mess than it would have if I had just had them done. But hey, I just don't trust anyone to do what they say they will do anymore. Been burned to many times.

Dave

 

[Daves55Sedan]

Dave, I'll tell ya what a body shop would do: They won't take any pains to fit a replacement panel on the car. What ever you give them, they just weld it on right over the top of the existing fender, then they build up bondo over the edge to smooth it out. The problem with that is, that these replacement panels do NOT fit and they need a little work to make them fit.
I cut off my old rear quarter and cut the replacement panel to fit precisely in the cutout plus added 1/2 inch at top to flange in under the old fender for welding. The fender flare on the replacement panel needs to be heated up and bent a little to fit the original contour of the wheelwell opening. At the very back the radius at the bottom is not right and needs to be modified so it will mate up with the inner quarter panel. I cut off all the metal around the taillight bumpout as it will not align properly.
I made all those modifications, but the body shop will not do any of those. Just weld on and bondo, bondo, bondo.

 

[Dave Covey]

I installed both of my quarters myself also. The first one I replace the tail light area as well. It didn't fit worth a crap but a little body hammer persuasion and then some lead made it look original. The other side I did as you mentioned and left a good 1 1/2 inch around the light area then welded and leaded. Turned out nice and much easier to work. Again on one side at the door opening I rolled a step and slid the new part under the original and welded, then I got to reading how "professionals" did it and they all recommended doing a butt weld. They claim no matter what, unless you weld both sides of a stepped weld it will eventually hold moisture and you will get rust. So on the second side I just butt welded it.
Fender flare area worked out good for me other than at some time in the past someone had really cut down the inner well lip, leaving not a lot of material.
I have spent the last several nights working the left quarter in front of the wheel well (the one with the step rolled into it) and it is giving me a hard time. It is "caved in" and everything I have tried cannot get it out far enough. I'm within 1/4 inch of where most of it needs to be. Started out around 3/4 or so caved in. I can set up a jack and push it out and it will look good but I can't get it to stay there. Last night I welded a bunch of studs on it and used heat around the stud while pulling then body hammered the high spots. It came out a little but not enough. My next attempt will be to use a port a power and push it out, hammer and dolly it to stretch it a bit and see where I end up.
Hate to put an inch of putty on it, just don't want to be one of those guy's..lol

I've spent a lot of time researching how to shrink metal and replacing/making patch panels, but no one seems to talk much on how to properly stretch it.
I have spent 40 years welding race cars but not so much body panels.

I'll listen to any advise..

Thanks
Dave

 

[Daves55Sedan]

then I got to reading how "professionals" did it and they all recommended doing a butt weld. They claim no matter what, unless you weld both sides of a stepped weld it will eventually hold moisture and you will get rust.

In butt welding, it is needed to utilize removable "H" pattern holders that hold the two pieces flush with each other and it causes there to be a little gap between the two pieces (which is intended to be filled in with weld.) I'm not good enough with mig to always get my wire started right at the edge of one of those pieces of metal to get the weld process started. Most times, my wire feeds through in between (in the gap area) and wastes a length of wire. The flanging method (or step, as you call it) is okay as long as you can access the backside of the weld and treat that flange with a paintbrush and preferably also coat over it using a caulking gun with roofing patch (like "BlackJack") or something similar. My Courier is all done with the flanging method 20 years ago and the backside of the welds looks like the day after it was first finished still, but it was properly treated.

Hate to put an inch of putty on it, just don't want to be one of those guy's..lol.

I'm with you there!

I've spent a lot of time researching how to shrink metal and replacing/making patch panels, but no one seems to talk much on how to properly stretch it.

I had a similar problem where I found minor collision damage at the front of the rear wheelwell on the left side. The worst of it had to be cut off anyway due to the amount of rustholes that made it unsalvageable, but the back doorjamb in that area was pushed in about 3/4 inch, thus the door seal wasn't even touching the body. I was able to push it back out using a torch for heat and a jack behind it enough to make the doorseal come in contact with the jamb prior to welding on the new metal (which, when finished, added strength to the existing metal that had to be pushed out).

I have spent 40 years welding race cars but not so much body panels.

When I was a kid, we had an old Lincoln arc welder out in the garage and I loved going out there and making (or fixing) things with it. Welding 18 gage with a Mig welder is a whole different animal.

 

[Daves55Sedan]

Back to the rain gutters again. The bare metal surface inside the gutters was first cleaned out real well, then coated with rust converter, then I mixed up a batch of old PPG grey auto primer and brushed the primer in the gutters with a modelling brush. After the primer was good and dry, I used the same brush to apply the aqua colored enamel overcoat (also PPG). That can of enamel paint is probably around 25 years old but still good. Same goes for the can of hardener (PPG).
I did use the 3M Fast-N-Firm caulk in the gutters. Boy that was a huge challenge, because the tip of the caulk tube is only so long, but the top of the '55 pops up and prohibits your ability to get the angle that you want to apply the caulk. Bear in mind that the seam you want to seal with the caulk is at the far outer end where the side of the gutter turn upward. It started getting messy. I cut some cardboard trowels and used them to smooth out the caulk. I was not satisfied. Additionally, the width of the gutter changes depending upon where you are around the top, and I ended up with 3 different sizes of cardboard trowels. I finally gave up and started using my finger to smooth out the caulk. It is a lot better, but by no means the result I was hoping for. I've got a coat of the same primer over the top of the caulk now which helped a little more, and then it will get a coat of the enamel over that. I know that the first time it rains, there is gonna be little nooks and cranny's in there that will catch and hold dirt. But I am confident that the seam is well sealed, and hopeful that this will be the end of the rust up there.

 

[frank long island]

for anyone doing this 3m makes a self leveling seam sealer as well as one that goes over bare metal they stay flexible where the fast and firm dries harder but does the job its your choice

 

[Daves55Sedan]

3m makes a self leveling seam sealer

Frank, I didn't ignore your earlier post about this. I ruled it out because I feared that it would run downhill at the back where the gutter curves down by the back window. Although, the self-levelling stuff would have been my first pick if I had needed to do this on the Courier wagon, singe the whole rain gutter is basically flat on the wagon models. Thanx for the suggestion, and I am keeping it in mind if the Courier ever needs gutter attention.

 

[frank long island]

no insults taken I just threw it out there for others to see their are products for every problem