Premium gas in model a

[John Stone]

Last week on the trip to Kansas City I decided to use premium all the way. Weather predictions were for hot, hot, hot. At the last fill up, my car was of course heat soaked and hot when we started out and it vapor locked. Opened the GAV about 1/2 turn and it ran good enough to keep going. When we got in traffic a little later it just didn't want to idle or run good at all. Put in about 4 oz. of MMO in the parking lot and had no further problems the rest of the week. Even went back to regular unleaded. Apparently not all premium is ethonal free.

 

[Drew N. Minnesota]

Based on BTU, mileage with 10% ethanol(110,660 BTU) vs. summer gas/no ethanol(114,500 BTU) would be 3.35% lower. Maybe not significant in one tank of gas or one owner's car but significant considering the millions of gallons used in the U.S.

 

[Mike V. Florida]

Are there any I'll affects to running premium gas in a model a? I live in Texas and this summer it seems like more A's are having vapor lock issues down here and it's rumored that premium gas doesn't vapor lock as easily. Let me know what you think. I leave on a tour tomorrow across the state of Texas, and it's going to be 101 degrees plus humidity.

Your wallet will become lighter quicker.

 

[Mike V. Florida]

"Raises food costs - political, should not be discussed on this forum."


not political.
just pure economic reality.
taking corn aweay from the food chain to make ethanol makes less available for food use and will increase the price. not complicated.

My son was selling t shirts to raise money for his car. He was told that the amount for the shirts were going way up and when asked why he was told the price of cotton had gone way up. We looked up that claim on the internet and found that the cotton growers were switching over to corn for fuel and other parts of the world that grow cotton had crop problems.

This link is from one article the NY Times;

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/29/business/29cotton.html

 

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

My son was selling t shirts to raise money for his car. He was told that the amount for the shirts were going way up and when asked why he was told the price of cotton had gone way up. We looked up that claim on the internet and found that the cotton growers were switching over to corn for fuel and other parts of the world that grow cotton had crop problems.

This link is from one article the NY Times;

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/29/business/29cotton.html

I personally make GAS from BEANS! Too bad I can't trap it in a pressurized tank. A neighbor might say, "God, I just smelled ol' Bill go by in 'VERMIN!"

 

[Cool Hand Lurker]

"ethanol boils at 78 degrees"

That's 78 degrees Celsius, which would be 176º F.

 

[walls]

[/QUOTE]Short shelf life - gasoline one year / gasohol 90 days. I personally have not had a tank or even a partial tank of fuel in my "A" for 90 days, I drive it enough during the season to need a fill-up at least every 2 weeks and drain it during the winter.[/QUOTE]

-Just wondering, do you take your carb apart too?
I never drain the tank but, I guess that would be the way to go.
I use a stabilizer in the winter.

[/QUOTE]Lower fuel mileage - any data?[/QUOTE]

-I just read a consumer reports article that stated their test car, a Chevy Tahoe FFV, got 21mpg w/ gas and 15 w/ E85 Highway.


[/QUOTE]Eats rubber - addressed in my first reply. Should not be a problem in an "A". [/QUOTE]

-I guess because this is posted in the Model A section, this is valid. However, I'd assume alot of the people on this board have cars other than A's. I could be misguided but, I have used rubber lines in different situations to isolate vibration.


[/QUOTE]Good- I won't argue that it is good, I just don't understand all the arguments for BAD.[/QUOTE]

-I really only have anecdotal evidence that this stuff is bad for old cars. Anything that's going to cause potential carb problems, I'd try to avoid.

 

[A29Adriver]

Benson

The main argument against MTBE is that it lasts forever and when it leaks out of a gasoline tank at a service station it eventually finds it's way into the water suppy and makes water taste really crappy, something like one molecule of MTBE in 10,000 gallons of water imparts a taste to the water. (there is no real evidence yet that it causes cancer or even kills cockroaches)

Winter gas being sold in the summer and causing problems, doesn't mean that winter Gasohol in the winter or summer Gasohol in the summer is a problem.

I have also seen ugly gas after it ages, but the gas was gasoline not Gasohol and it was no more that 18 months old.

John Lavoy / Special Coupe Frank

I was skeptical about the vapor lock, but you are beginning to convince me that something is causing the problem and its very likely Gasohol. Has anybody had that problem with less than 1/2 tank of gas that, during the middle of the day, resolved when the tank was filled with non-Gasohol?

Kurt in NJ

Can we start experimenting with anti-freeze as a fuel? It is good to know that ethanol does have some benificial effects such as lowering emissions.

b-walls

No I don't take my carb apart even when I put the car away during the winter. However, everytime I drive the car and then pull into the garage to put it away, I turn the gas valve to off and let the engine run until it dies due to lack of fuel, emptying the carb of most of the gas.

The Consumer report was about E-85 and a modern car. I have been basing all of my discussion on Gasohol 10% and a Model A.

The rubber lines that you talk about - I am not sure if you mean a gas line from the tank to the carb, for vibration isolation, but a rubber hose from the tank to the carb is very close to hot surfaces that could melt the line and then 9 gals of fuel run into the engine compartment real quick (I have used a rubber line when playing with a number of different carbs to see how they run, but I don't routinely put my-self in this situation.

The only reason I started to participate in this discussion, is that it seems that some of the posts are stating opinions in the form of facts, such as "DON"T USE GASOHOL IT WILL LOWER YOUR MILEAGE" rather than "WHEN I USE GASOHOL IT LOWERS MY MPG FROM 18MPG TO 12MPG.

It is interesting where threads tend to go, I have tried to use valid information to elicit some hard data, either from written articles such as the Consumer Report that you mentioned or even from an "A" driver who has experienced MPG change or other determental affects from Gasohol and we get discussion about the high cost of ethanol or the food crops that will not get produced or the cotton that is used to make t-shirts, all of which deserved to be discussed, but I was hoping that in this particular thread we would get some real reasons that ethanol is not good for model A's.

So far the Cork issue is the only valid argument against avoiding it totally.

 

[Tom Wesenberg]

I was replacing fuel pumps every few months in my 1985 Caravan and Omni due to ethanol eating them up. I had to park them and start driving a newer car with the fuel injection and pump in the tank. Even that had the fuel pressure regulator diaphram eaten up.

If 10% ethanol can do this to my motorbike float a few times each year, I'd think it might do the same to any other brass float. My motorbike has 12" of small copper fuel line and maybe that had some effect on the ethanol. My motorbike could barely make a certain hill when using 10% ethanol, but since I now use only GOOD gas it climbs the hill much better, and I haven't had to clean the carb every few months.

 

[Special Coupe Frank]

RE: "vapor lock"(starvation while running due to fuel vaporizing in one of the lines) and "percolation" ( fuel boiling in the carb bowl )...

I used to poo-poo "vapor lock" as an urban legend - when it happened, it was usually from another root cause ( blocked gas-cap vent, crud in the fuel system, pin-holes in the suction-line from the tank to the pump, etc.)

I stll have yet to experience true "vapor-lock" in a vehicle with gravity fuel-feed.

However, there have been a lot of folks on the Discussion Forum at the AACA site over the last year or two complaining of vapor-lock and percolation/hard-starting after a brief stop in hot weather.

Most of the complaints seem to be comming from folks with 1937-'40 Buicks ( particularly those living in Florida and Texas), where the air-flow under the hood and the fuel-line routing keep the fuel-line too warm. '39 Buick seems to be the worst in this regard.

The corrosion / fuel-separation issue is prevelant anywhere ethanated fuels are used, plus the deterioration of non-neoprene fuel system rubber.

Ask anybody who's been in the business of rebuilding fuel pumps for the last couple of decades, or folks in the marine-engine / small engine business.

I agree that the Model A is probably better-equipped to cope with a multitude of fuels, due to the gravity fuel-feed, adjustable main jet, and rubber-free fuel system...

Just trying to point-out that the does seem to be accumulating evidence that ethanated fuel has some down-sides....

And the stuff is really not a problem when used in vehicles designed to run on the stuff..

 

[Terry NJ]

Off Topic questions, I wanted to buy a Benz several times in my life but the deal breaker was when I saw "Premium gas only" Are all Benzes Premium fuel only? I presntly own a 95 Saab 9000 and VW Jetta TDI diesel
The old Saab gets me 30-31 mpg and the VW averages about 41-44 mph. The Saab uses non proprietary fluids like oil and anti-freese. The VW does not. Does the Mercedes? I'd realy love to own one before I die, but I don't want to go broke with it.
Terry

I have read many post about changing heat range on plugs, --my plugs burn black, what is a better plug to use to cure it --rarely do I read---my plugs burm black, what can I do to fix my rich mixture problem ----the ethanol is your goverment trying to help you.

NJ has had ethanol in the gas for years, my gas gauge still works.

I will say that the gas can leave a brown goo on the tip of the jet if I don't run the fuel level down in the carb before shutoff.

I have checked the exhause emissions on my car ---both before, and after ethonal and it has changed my carb from slightly rich with the GAV closed (4%co) to less than 1% co with the GAV closed at 1500 rpm under load.

I have seen it seperate, but most times it was sold by the station that way.

Perhaps it is something other than the ethanol that is added to the mix that is causing the problem, when it was first introduced I replaced quite a few fuel pressure regulators on benzes, ---but none in the last 2 years.

I am not saying that I like the gas, but I know that the A can tolerate it much better than other old cars ---with the GAV you can adjust for many different qualitys of fuels.

As for fuel mileage I don't keep records now, I did keep records on a long trip I made to the world meet but the fuel mileage on a long trip running --23 mpg at 60-65, now in my short trip driving --2-100 mile trips is still in the range of 20 ---good enough that I don't worry about fuel consumption

Vapor lock??not one of the problems I have, even with winter gas on hot days, with a crack in the ex manifold puffing on the carb ---I do know of some cars(not A) that have had fuel boiling problems --they still have fuel boiling problems with ethonal fuel.

All of the Benzes that are my daily drivers say--preimum fuel only ---I have only used regular, the 420 pings some on some brands ---the 320 doesn't care, and it gets better fuel mileage than a co-worker with the same car that only gets preimum.
The old benz diesels don't care if they get a little of any spoiled gas --they will even burn antifreeze( was accidental)

 

[Special Coupe Frank]

Off Topic questions, I wanted to buy a Benz several times in my life ... I'd realy love to own one before I die, but I don't want to go broke with it.
Terry

Terry,

I like vintage Benzes too, and always wanted a nice 220 S sedan from the 1950s ( which I believe was their 110 series body).

For a while in the late 1990's, I did own a 1963 M-B 220 Sb sedan ( the 111 series "tail-fin Benz").

My experience is that they are neat cars, but when they need stuff, they get REAL expensive, REAL fast.

There are also major rust-issues with them around here in coal / salt country.

That was also my experience selling auto-parts while in HS, in the early 1980's ... many Benz owners that came to us for parts nearly had heart-failure when they were informed of the price...

I also briefly owned a '59 M-B 190 sedan the was decent, but needed a complete brake-system rebuild ( lines, cylinders, flex hoses, shoes, etc.) At that time ( 1995 ), it was going to run about $1500 in parts alone, my labor.

Just my experiences with them.

In Europe and the Middle East they are commonly used for taxi service, so I guess they are durable beaters like the Crown-Vic is over here.

If you get a Benz, make sure you REALLY love it, cause it will test your wallet !

 

[MrTube]

I'll probably be sorry I say this but. I had heard from a few people Ethanol was originally added to our gas in NJ to reduce emissions and it had nothing to do with reducing oil usage.

True or False?