Need help at Macungie P.A. Meet.

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Fred said:
Why Does it REALLY MATTER ??. Pete knows who they are...
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these are questions that i am asking because i want to know. i dont know pete , never talked to pete, never saw petes car. i will be at macungie to meet him and see his car.

is there anyone else that are responders that took part of the judging process of petes car?
 
Marco,

I jumped in to attempt to learn something to hopefully make this discussion somewhat productive, even though I certainly understand why you feel that the discussion has not been helpful for the hobby. I am somewhat geographically handicapped in trying to learn more about MARC and MAFCA, even though I am a member of both. I did read Ken's response and think that it has helped me learn more about the subject.

A few years ago at a Charlotte AACA Meet, a MARC/MAFCA judge looked over my car. He suggested that I should consider entering my car in Blue Ribbon Judging. I have also put a few more hundred miles on the car since he looked at it, even though I have done my best to work on the car to avoid any signs of that driving.

After reading this discussion, I think that his suggestion may have not been quite right, as it sounds like Touring Class is more appropriate for my car. A Senior Grand National Car in AACA competition would have to have received at least 390 out of 400 points, but the AACA judging system is obviously much more forgiving as a correct looking reproduction part does not receive a deduction.

Also, there is no such thing as "Best of Show" at an AACA Meet. The AACA Judging system is not perfect, as I suspect can be said of all systems. Any system that has humans judging anything is going to have mistakes from time to time. One thing that is often debated about AACA Judging is that AACA does not reveal the numerical score to the competitor. The competitor can receive a highlighted blank judging sheet that shows areas where points were lost, but not a copy of the actual numerical score. Lots of people don't like this about AACA Judging, but I am sure that this is done to avoid ugly arguments such as this one. I am beginning to think that maybe that part of the AACA system is a good idea.

Hopefully, I will get a chance to attend a MARC of MAFCA Meet in the future. Hopefully, everybody here can learn something from this wide-ranging discussion. Hopefully, we can all remember that this is a hobby and it is supposed to be about the friendships developed and the fun experienced!
 
Hopefully, we can all remember that this is a hobby and it is supposed to be about the friendships developed and the fun experienced!

Well said!

I too, share the opinion that this thread and discussion is "somewhat destructive to the hobby".

While I would not feel discouraged in competing, I sure in hell would be discouraged in contributing to the hobby by judging, if I knew that my name and reputation was going to be dragged through the mud on an internet public forum.

Great Googley Moogley! :eek:
 
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forever4 ,No way at 500 ! and NO way at even 495. When you get 5 judges [a couple much longer then Dave ] in the parking lot and given MORE TIME then the judges had to judge the cars on show day and all "agree" to 485 + [with one of them looking for more then 1 hour] because he was so glad i gave him that much time to see the car he heard so much about. It's funny how people dance around some of my questions.. Again answer the questions in the above post. Black cowl wire [good or bad call?] 1928/29 hood shelf % off? I have a 1930 [good or bad call?] Am i telling the truth about how it gets when you are over a certain point level or trying to get there and inform them with calls like the edge of the paint should not have a edge but should be airbrushed thin with no edge on a 30/31 dash panel. Are there speedometer decal numbers that will pass the judges OK when restoring a unit? ? That it's upto a judge to deside how many% should be deducted with only his gauge? 8 % of 10 % or 5% out of 10%. i mean what determine's that???[Is it a repro or not ,correct finish or not, to much paint or not enough, gloss or not enough gloss, dull or not dull enough,black or not black enough , its flat but not flat enough? answers please and don't dance. People should be informed on how it gets down and dirty and see if they want to go thru the judging process with their car..When a judge that did spend time judging my car calls me and ask my score total on the area he judged to make sure it was not changed.! What does that tell ya. He could not believe the low score for the car.And i was warned what to expect when i recieved my score..So do i or don't have a right to sound off and let others know what might or will happen to them after years of restoration work. By the way i am a Senior Master judge [27 National meets and 12 judging school classes] and started in 1976 for A.A.C.A. . that and 10 cents would not even get you on a subway! I even took the MAFCA test and passed back in early 80's and did not follow thru judging at a show. I know A.A.C.A. in no way the same as MARC/MAFCA but i do get to judge those cars too ! I am going with what some people who did judge my car and did not at the show all being judges and again all agree the score was "set" to low .
 
I've been a senior judge for 25 years and have competed with my cars at both MARC and MAFCA national meets. At Vancouver I've entered 2 cars, 1 in touring and 1 in blue ribbon. After reading most of this thread, considering the new 5000 point system, and the half points rule for actual or suspected repo parts, I think this might be my last national competition. I don't think the judging thing will be fun anymore. Plus, I only have a few friends who care about judging. My club, The Hangtown As, is all about touring in the beautiful Northern California foothills. Club tours have always been my favorite part of the Model A hobby anyway.
Glenn Johnson in Camino
 
So to summarize:
1. Pete got screwed. So what? I simpathize (I really do as posted earlier), but it happenes everyday. Move on. Show it again. Fix it. Get it off of this forum and approach judges/powers that be in the clubs and get it figured out. I agree that playing this out here is damaging.

2. Fine point judging takes points off for marginally insignificant things. GREAT. It should. If you lower the standards it doesn't make anybodies car any better. If (and I meant if) a car with RP parts made a 500, where would a better car go from there?

3. I think fine point probably is out of most peoples grasp. Shouldn't it be? Think about any other hobby. I'm not buying a thoroughbread race horse anytime soon. Not getting that drag boat I've been wanting. I'm not going to enter to win tennis at wibulton (sp? whatever). Not participating in the next olympics. My point: it should be VERY DIFFICULT.

So, perfect judging will never happen. Every entry will never go home happy with their score, period. Ask the losers of the superbowl each year if they think things were fair. Somebody has to take 2nd and 3rd place.

Yawn, i'm really ready to watch this thread move to the rear.

Tom
 
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For the record how many NEW Restorations, and NEW owners enter "Fine Point" competition each year? How does this number compair with the past 10-20 years. Is this why Street Rodding, and Traditional Hot Rods are more popular?
 
As the farmer said " what good does it do to cry over spilled milk"

The only thing worry does is "WEIGHT THE WAGON DOWN"

Judges do the best they can, I agree with Marco's last post. Lets get back to enjoying our hobby, drive our A's, meet all the wonderful people, put your car in Blue Ribbon judging and reguardless of scoring be happy with what you receive but don't start threads like this one!!!!!!!!!!

Ron
 
D--n, I guess I will have to learn to type faster. for the third time, by the time I get done typing, I have 'timed' out.
 
Dave lopes and mark maron being master senior marc and mafca judges that took part in the judging of petes car i have some questions to ask

1. is it ethical to get involved in an open air huge forum debate such as this about a vehicle that you personally judged ? were not talking about a backyard car show, this is about putting serious time and money into something and making it the top of the top.

2. are there some kind of guidelines for judges and how they conduct there work to prevent or resolve things like this from happening ?

3. even if the owner of the said car started this complaint was it proper to answer this in a public forum or should it have been handled more privatley between the involved parties?

4. i know there are other certified resident judges on this forum who have not responded at all to any of this. is that because they are following the proper code of ethics if there are any?

i am asking these questions because i dont know the answers but what i do know is if i were to pursue building a fine point car and this is the way things are handled no matter how it was initiated i am no longer interested. my feelings are, this was taken care of in the most unprofessional way and i personally am very dissapointed. i am in the process of starting another restoration and decided to deviate away from the pursuit of finding 80 year old **** and making it new and breaking my *** to get a henry award. what i am planning now is to open up the repop book and order away build a show car in less than a year and get an aaca junior and senior award.

if the answers above are that nothing unethical or immoral happened here and this was the way things like this get resolved than i am sorry for wasting space but just expressing how i was affected.

as i stated above my questions are directed to the judges involved

mitch (peanut gallery)
 
Roadster62 said:
For the record how many NEW Restorations, and NEW owners enter "Fine Point" competition each year? How does this number compair with the past 10-20 years. Is this why Street Rodding, and Traditional Hot Rods are more popular?
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I know of at least four (4) NEW restorations & owners in fine-point judging this year because they were cars we restored at my shop. I also doubt you could accurately compare from 10-20 years ago due to present economy, timelines of an owner finishing his restoration, etc. however your final question is one that I feel I can answer very accurately! The answer is 'NO', --and here is why.

It is a totally different mindset and culture. Society today generally does not like to exactly follow rules or instruction, --and with a street rod or especially a "traditional rod" (which generally shares little w/ how they were traditionally built) type of vehicle, there is freedom for the builder to do it their way without accountability. This is what makes these type of cars "popular". Over the past few years I have hired a few, ...and interviewed many "hot rod builders" seeking employment who working for a period here have come to admit they cannot do quality restoration work. As an owner of a retoration shop AND a street rod shop, I can prove to you that it is MUCH easier to build a street rod than it is to accurately restore a vehicle.

Then when you factor in that most traditionalist rodders that I have/had a professional relationship with tend to be a tad "rebellious" with their craftsmanship as they tend to struggle with following rules. By that, they have difficulty being able to follow assembly protocol as they were established back when Ford had them built. These individuals tend to want to over-restore in some areas, shortcome in other areas, and generally complain about why the manufacturer did something a certain way. This is in no way meant as a slander towards them, or as belittling towards that culture but IMO it is a brutal reality. Some could even argue that this is why we see many Model A's that are touted as "restored" when in actuality their owner assembled them how they wanted their car instead of how it was originally assembled.

As far as admitting who judged Pete's vehicle, I too will admit that I judged his car at French Lick, (...and that I abstained from judging the four vehicles that my customers had entered).

.
 
I look at fine point judging much like bull riding, just because you stay on for 8 seconds does not mean you get all possible points and your score is tabulated by humans capable of making an error or 2 and subject to opinion. Rod
 
RockHillWill said:
D--n, I guess I will have to learn to type faster. for the third time, by the time I get done typing, I have 'timed' out.
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Will,

Same here sometimes.

Try this. Type your post in Word and then when you are done open "post Reply" and cut and paste it into the Ford Barn box.
 
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Mitch,

I don't have a dog in this fight, but since the owner started the discussion in an open forum, it seems quite ethical and fair to me for the judges to respond in the open forum. It would not be fair to only hear one side of the debate/complaint.

Certainly, it would have been nicer for the entire issue to have been resolved privately, if there could ever really be a resolution, but once it was started publicly, it seems only fair to go to its conclusion publicly.
 
Mitch//pa said:
Dave lopes and mark maron being master senior marc and mafca judges that took part in the judging of petes car i have some questions to ask

1. is it ethical to get involved in an open air huge forum debate such as this about a vehicle that you personally judged ? were not talking about a backyard car show, this is about putting serious time and money into something and making it the top of the top.

2. are there some kind of guidelines for judges and how they conduct there work to prevent or resolve things like this from happening ?

3. even if the owner of the said car started this complaint was it proper to answer this in a public forum or should it have been handled more privatley between the involved parties?

4. i know there are other certified resident judges on this forum who have not responded at all to any of this. is that because they are following the proper code of ethics if there are any?

i am asking these questions because i dont know the answers but what i do know is if i were to pursue building a fine point car and this is the way things are handled no matter how it was initiated i am no longer interested. my feelings are, this was taken care of in the most unprofessional way and i personally am very dissapointed. i am in the process of starting another restoration and decided to deviate away from the pursuit of finding 80 year old **** and making it new and breaking my *** to get a henry award. what i am planning now is to open up the repop book and order away build a show car in less than a year and get an aaca junior and senior award.

if the answers above are that nothing unethical or immoral happened here and this was the way things like this get resolved than i am sorry for wasting space but just expressing how i was affected.

as i stated above my questions are directed to the judges involved

mitch (peanut gallery)
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I am not a judge involved, but because you choose to post this publicly on a public forum, then it is also directed to me and everyone else, and I will choose to respond again also.

There is no issue and nothing to resolve here on fordbarn.
Pete's complaints have nothing to do with fordbarn, and it has been his continued choice to air his complaints publicly here, leaving it open for everyone to respond in what ever fashion they choose.
There is nothing improper or unethical about it.
It is all effectively just water cooler BS.

In actual fact, Pete did not get screwed as another post claimed.
Pete had the third highest point car of the meet, and he received the coveted Henry.
It is all sour grapes and his dissatisfaction and blame the he didn't get more.
His behavior is the improper part of the whole thread, IMO.

I am also a member of the peanut gallery, and have enjoyed the entertainment value of this thread immensely.
I still don't understand what prompted the discussion on fordbarn though.
 
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Please let me offer up an analogy here. Millions of people watched Armando Galarraga pitch a perfect game. One did not. So for the record he did not pitch a perfect game. But then how many balls and strikes were called wrong? They are subjective also. But no one stops playing, watching or umpiring. Everyone tries their best and it is not always what they expect but they go back. It would be funny to build a time machine and bring back a brand new Model A and watch it score less than 450 points.

I will never be in fine point judging but enjoy learning all the things that go into building a car like this. It makes it harder but we are lucky to have the amount of research and information that exists for the Model A. Even if someone is in touring class they will have a car that is restored just a little bit better because of the fine point cars.

And as Armando Galarraga taught us, taking the decision as part of the game earned a lot of respect. The perfect game never pitched will be well remembered.
 
Mitch//pa said:
judges that took part in the judging of petes car i have some questions to ask

1. is it ethical to get involved in an open air huge forum debate such as this about a vehicle that you personally judged ? were not talking about a backyard car show, this is about putting serious time and money into something and making it the top of the top.

2. are there some kind of guidelines for judges and how they conduct there work to prevent or resolve things like this from happening ?

3. even if the owner of the said car started this complaint was it proper to answer this in a public forum or should it have been handled more privatley between the involved parties?

4. i know there are other certified resident judges on this forum who have not responded at all to any of this. is that because they are following the proper code of ethics if there are any?

i am asking these questions because i don't know the answers but what i do know is if i were to pursue building a fine point car and this is the way things are handled no matter how it was initiated i am no longer interested. my feelings are, this was taken care of in the most unprofessional way and i personally am very disappointing. i am in the process of starting another restoration and decided to deviate away from the pursuit of finding 80 year old **** and making it new and breaking my *** to get a Henry award. what i am planning now is to open up the repop book and order away build a show car in less than a year and get an aaca junior and senior award.

if the answers above are that nothing unethical or immoral happened here and this was the way things like this get resolved than i am sorry for wasting space but just expressing how i was affected.

as i stated above my questions are directed to the judges involved

mitch (peanut gallery)
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Mitch To Respond to your question:
1. is it ethical to get involved in an open air huge forum debate such as this about a vehicle that you personally judged ? were not talking about a backyard car show, this is about putting serious time and money into something and making it the top of the top.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with asking a question, asking in my opinion brings education, and education brings better restorations and allows more to get involved because they understand the process and what is involved to achieve their goal. Now Personlly I do believe the queries should have been asked in private emails.

2. are there some kind of guidelines for judges and how they conduct there work to prevent or resolve things like this from happening ?

First things like what from happening. What you are reading is an individual that has a beautiful car and choose to air his question and grievances in an open air forum,, How can we prevent that?

3. even if the owner of the said car started this complaint was it proper to answer this in a public forum or should it have been handled more privately between the involved parties?

That again is a matter of opinion, and my opinion is YES..

i am asking these questions because i don't know the answers but what i do know is if i were to pursue building a fine point car and this is the way things are handled no matter how it was initiated i am no longer interested. my feelings are, this was taken care of in the most unprofessional way and i personally am very disappointing. i am in the process of starting another restoration and decided to deviate away from the pursuit of finding 80 year old **** and making it new and breaking my *** to get a Henry award. what i am planning now is to open up the repop book and order away build a show car in less than a year and get an aaca junior and senior award.

That is the mistake of this feed. Nothing unethical happened here, a person will a beautiful car was questioning his score, how he did it might not have been the correct way to do it, airing ones grievances and negative comments don't help any situation. We all need to take a deep breath, sit back and relax and end this. We lost a great member of our hobby this week and why are we carrying on like this about this person who is complaing about his Henry,
This hobby is too great to be doing this in this feed. PLEASE don't shy away from Fine Point, it is a wonderful part of our hobby and very enjoyable part. The statement you say of finding 80 year old "****" is what we love, it is the hunt that makes this so fun and the restoration of the fine great part, Just because one person has a gripe why would YOU as an individual allow another persons opinion deter YOU from doing what you want? Breaking your "***" to make a Henry, who said you had to go to that level. Please note that the intention of Fine Point judging is NOT to create a Henry for each and every person, but to replicate as close as possible the car that came of the assembly line and to ENJOY doing it every step of the way. This feed got way way out of hand and out of line and i am sorry to hear you feel that way but you should really re consider your thoughts and your goals and be sure to read the next issue of Model A Restores, Bill Raucher built a MARC of Excellence with 432 point in Dallas for approx 16K.. He did not kill himself, he used repo (A&L) parts and original,.but you know what HE HAD A BALL and has a fantastic car and Kudos to him. He did it by himself and now has over 5000 miles on it. That is this hobby, to restore, drive, enjoy and part of it is restoration. Don't allow some bad apples in a basket ruin what you wanted to do, there are other here that will drop it all to lend a hand, phone call, email or what ever it takes. Good luck to you and I hope your restoration goes well

Mark
IMHO:D
 
"As far as admitting who judged Pete's vehicle, I too will admit that I judged his car at French Lick, (...and that I abstained from judging the four vehicles that my customers had entered)." above quote from Brent.

Brent, I think that is the correct thing to do, not judge a car you or your shop restored, HOWEVER, whoever replaced you would in my opinion judged differently. How can the totals of all the cars in competition be considered consistant if there are different judges coming in and out of the team? After 30 years of AACA Judging I know that the team starts with and ends with the same members and they judge every car in the assigned class.
 
Readers of this thread,

I wish I had made this suggestion in my very first response to Pete. I strongly suggest that everyone read the "Introduction" and "Judging the Model A," the first two sections of "Model A Judging Standards and Restoration Guidelines." Reading that would have answered many questions and concerns presented through this thread. If you haven't read it, or haven't read it in quite some time, please do so.


Mitch,

Since you directed your questions to Mark and I, as well as any other people who judged Pete's car at French Lick, I will respond. However, I have pretty much run out of energy with this thread and Pete's continued whining over and over. Not knowing you, but trying to think about how people can look at this from different points of view, I think you ask some fair questions.

Please read Forever4's response and Mark's response to you, as I doubt I could say it any better. I will add my two cents anyway, but I'm going to keep it brief because these two gentlemen said it so well in their responses.

My responses to your questions and comments in blue.

Dave Lopes


"1. is it ethical to get involved in an open air huge forum debate such as this about a vehicle that you personally judged ? were not talking about a backyard car show, this is about putting serious time and money into something and making it the top of the top."

First, I will make a defensive comment by writing that I do not believe I have done anything unethical in any way, shape, or form. If I have, someone needs to point that out to me.
My responses to Pete were directed at his questioning of the ethics of the judges, the quality of the judging process, and his general bashing of the judging his car received at French Lick.
My primary reason for responding to Pete's whining was so that readers would NOT take his comments and believe that the MARC or MAFCA judging at national meets is anything but ethical and fair. I know from my own personal experience that it is such.
So, to directly answer your question, YES, I do believe it was ethical to stand up to Pete's negative comments about the judging.

"2. are there some kind of guidelines for judges and how they conduct there work to prevent or resolve things like this from happening ?"

Yes. Those guidelines are in the front of "Model A Judging Standards and Restoration Guidelines," the section titled, "Judging the Model A," from which I quoted to Pete about the scoring reproduction parts.

"3. even if the owner of the said car started this complaint was it proper to answer this in a public forum or should it have been handled more privatley between the involved parties?"

As indicated above, my reason to respond to Pete's complaints publicly was to defend the integrity of the judging process in National Model A Blue Ribbon judging. Again, I do not want readers to have a skewed image of what goes on during judging, which is exactly what many have gained by reading Pete's postings. That's such a shame. I agree with Marco's post that this thread has likely done damage to our hobby. My true intent is to minimize that damage, not further it!
At this point, I must quote from the Judging Standards, page 13, "Strive to encourage others in their restoration and in the betterment ofthe hobby." Do Pete's posts do anything to encourage others? It is my intention in my posts to offset the damage Pete's negativity has done.

"4. i know there are other certified resident judges on this forum who have not responded at all to any of this. is that because they are following the proper code of ethics if there are any?"

There is no code of ethics that prohibit the activity we have engaged in on this forum. Read the Standards and read the clubs' bylaws.
Other judges may have decided to not get involved because it takes so much time and energy, and opens a person up to so many negative things. You should read some of the e-mails! However, the negative e-mails I received are far outweighed by the positive ones.

"i am asking these questions because i don't know the answers but what i do know is if i were to pursue building a fine point car and this is the way things are handled no matter how it was initiated i am no longer interested. my feelings are, this was taken care of in the most unprofessional way and i personally am very disappointing. i am in the process of starting another restoration and decided to deviate away from the pursuit of finding 80 year old **** and making it new and breaking my *** to get a Henry award. what i am planning now is to open up the repop book and order away build a show car in less than a year and get an aaca junior and senior award."

I'm not sure what you mean by, "...this is the way things are handled..." To that, I will repeat by writing that I am simply defending the judging process of both National clubs against Pete's negative comments that he could have aired with the Judging Standards Committee and/or the Chief Judge of the meet. Since he chose to air it publicly, I chose to defend the judges and the judging process, that Pete does not even participate in. I hope that my postings have preserved the desire of some people to continue on their journey of building a fine-point car. It appears that Pete succeeded in turing some people away from doing that. Again, what a shame.

if the answers above are that nothing unethical or immoral happened here and this was the way things like this get resolved than i am sorry for wasting space but just expressing how i was affected.

as i stated above my questions are directed to the judges involved

mitch (peanut gallery)
 
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