flywheel/clutch balancing

[boboran]

Hello, I need to balance my 31 flywheel and clutch assembly.Is there anywhere near Fresno Ca. that could do this for me? Thanks ahead Bill

 

[d.j. moordigian]

Bill,

Call John @ 485-4543 or 441-8322, same shop different line. He's done my stuff
for 25 plus years, EXCELLENT.

Dudley

 

[J and M Machine]

Tell them you won't accept less than perfect.!

 

[Bill Stipe]

Bill Ask them to balance it setting it up for 2 planes. I alway balance anything wider the 2 inches dual plane.
Bill Stipe
Specialty Motor Cams

 

[J and M Machine]

Bill: it all depends on the balancer as both of our machines the prior Hines and the new CWT are used to balance the flywheel with single plane or in Force mode.
I've never heard of using the two planes as that would mean a counteracting force.
As in the V8 counter weights one up one down.

 

[Tom Wesenberg]

Bill: it all depends on the balancer as both of our machines the prior Hines and the new CWT are used to balance the flywheel with single plane or in Force mode.
I've never heard of using the two planes as that would mean a counteracting force.
As in the V8 counter weights one up one down.

I haven't heard the term "in FORCE mode" before. Is that the same meaning as dynamic balance?

I'm thinking the same as Bill, such that a very narrow wheel and tire (like early cars and bicycles) won't be as much affected by placing a 2 ounce weight on one side of the rim and placing a 2 ounce weight 180* apart on the other side of the rim, as the effect would be from doing the same on a wide rim. The wide rim would remain in static balance, but would be far out on dynamic balance.

 

[Kurt in NJ]

I have spun up flywheels on my old french dynamic wheel balancer, it came with a set of cones,it is sensitive enough to show a difference of 2 grams ---put it on the wrong side of the "A" flywheel and it wobbles, I know it isn't good enough to balance flywheels but it made me aware that just a single plane balance isn't enough for the deep flywheel of an "A",or"B"to get the desired results of the smoothest running possible

 

[J Franklin]

I had mine balanced by Edelbrock when I was a kid. I didn't know any of this info then but think it was done right.

 

[J and M Machine]

I haven't heard the term "in FORCE mode" before. Is that the same meaning as dynamic balance?

I'm thinking the same as Bill, such that a very narrow wheel and tire (like early cars and bicycles) won't be as much affected by placing a 2 ounce weight on one side of the rim and placing a 2 ounce weight 180* apart on the other side of the rim, as the effect would be from doing the same on a wide rim. The wide rim would remain in static balance, but would be far out on dynamic balance.

Tom: The Balancers we have had and now have both use the term "Force" to describe the single plane such as a flywheel /flexplate.

In regard to what your are mentioning I have never tried to do a flywheel in dual plane as that is for counteracting forces such as a crankshaft.
Unless his machine works differently then the ones that are available now.

From what you are mentioning to balance on both sides such as the example of the tire balancer is to compensate for the gyroscopic forces as a tire produces I believe that procedure wouldn't work on our machines as the computer wouldn't know what to do.

Basically as you can see in the above picture I have posted earlier that the flywheel and clutch are mounted together and balanced as a unit between the machine uprights mounted to a spindle.

After the information of the diameter of the correction area is inputed into the macine the flywheel spins and the computer decides from the information of unbalance "ie" vibration that it picks up from the strain gauges mounted in the uprights the computer decides where to make the correction and tell you how deep to drill since you've told the machine what size dirll you're using and what angle drill tip also.

Ford has done this procedure the same way as I am explaining although with an analog machine rather than digital naturally.

If we were to believe that they did it the way Bill is mentioning then there would be holes drilled on the back face of the flywheel as well as holes drilled on the small diameter up front which isn't the case.

Ford did balance the flywheels by spinning them as I have shown and by drilling them using one plane only.

I'm not saying you can't do it Bill's way but doesn't really make sense as there are alot more people smarter than I am that have designed the machines to do one area only.

Here is a short video of a similar machine to what we have now as the owner of the company explains how it gets done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-yG7qtbm_0&feature=player_embedded#!

 

[Pete]

We have a Stewart Warner balancer.
The terms we use are "static" for single plane
and "dynamic" for balance over the whole length of the part.
On a flywheel by itself, static is all you need.
On any part over 3 inches long, you need to balance dynamically
also..You balance statically FIRST then dynamically.
A clutch/flywheel combination needs to have the flywheel balanced by itself FIRST, then the clutch bolted on and the whole assembly balanced.
In this day and age, I find it absolutely amazing that people in the balancing business do not know where to remove metal on a clutch to balance it..I have had 2 jobs come in the shop recently that had weight welded on the clutch cover to balance it..A bomb waiting to explode.

 

[Bill Stipe]

Hi John, or Mike,
Anyway the way you are balancing your Flywheels is fine and will suffice in getting the job done.
I only mention to balance dynamicly if the the part is wider. I make a jugment call if say the flywheel is wider then 2 inches. Model A is nearly 3 inches so I look at it in dual plane. if you think about it on a greater unbalance state, say add 1 pound of weight to the ring gear side and then 180 degrees opposite on the pressure plate side and kepping the same radius of coarse, add 1 pound, the flywheel should still be staticly balanced but when spinning it up to speed it will try to gyro and tip to try and force the the 1 pound weights to be directly straight up oppose each other or couple the force together.
So I always try to balance in 2 planes on a wide part. And like Pete said I do the flywheel by its self first then add the pressure plate and yes I do not weld on it (ouch).

Bill Stipe

 

[Bill Stipe]

Ok I have a question to ask the guys with balncing experience. when you mount the pressure plate to the flywheel do you balacne it with the fingers out free no shims or do you shim to the clutch disc thickness and if so how do you shim it? Also to what ISO standard do you balance your auto parts too or gram inches?


Bill

 

[Pete]

Ok I have a question to ask the guys with balncing experience. when you mount the pressure plate to the flywheel do you balacne it with the fingers out free no shims or do you shim to the clutch disc thickness and if so how do you shim it? Also to what ISO standard do you balance your auto parts too or gram inches?


Bill

No shims.
.01 inch ounces or less than 1/2 gram.

Something most people don't think about but the degree of balance in a rotating part is directly proportional to the ridigidity of it's mounts.
This is basically how a balancer works.

 

[J and M Machine]

Ok I have a question to ask the guys with balncing experience. when you mount the pressure plate to the flywheel do you balacne it with the fingers out free no shims or do you shim to the clutch disc thickness and if so how do you shim it? Also to what ISO standard do you balance your auto parts too or gram inches?


Well doesn't make sense to me to balance flywheel first and then balance clutch with flywhell as time is money,furthermore why do it twice?

Gary at ABS Products recommends putting spacer shims in when balancing the clutches but if the cover is warped it defeats the purpose of keeping the plate flat.

ISO standard I believe on something like this where the RPM's are low would be safe at 2 grams but I am with Pete and go for zero grams as that way you make it the best running engine and everyone is happy with the result.

 

[Bill Stipe]

I only balance the wheel seperately because if someone has to replace the PP then they are only out of balance on the new pp if they can't get it balance before hand.
Your correct on the time is money thats why I shy away from customers work because I get too fussy with it.
If the PP is warped I would not waist time balancing it the customer needs to get a different one, I know some custmers can be hard to convince that and that again is why I try not to take engine work in, maybe if I retire and have nothing better to do.

I do agree with you on the RPM being low and 2 grams is good but I too working on my own stuff go for zero 1/2 gram is some times hard to repeat and hold on respins.

 

[Dave in MN]

My balance shop also balances the flywheel first and then adds the pressure plate (pp). Adjustments to assembly balance after pp is added are then done to the pressure plate....like Bill explains....and for the same reason. The extra time/cost is worth it to me. When I explain the process to my customers...I have not had one ask for less yet.

 

[MikeK]

A little late on this thread, but there is one missing element that hasn't been mentioned:
The clutch friction disc itself!

You need to balance the pressure plate bolted to the flywheel without the disc, marking the orientation and installing the disc after. Most shops know this, but I went into one recently and saw an assembly on a Stewart Warner balancer with the disc in place!

The friction discs randomly orient (radially) every time you use the clutch, and many new friction discs are not balanced when manufactured or relined. I've had discs off as much as 20g when statically (single plane) checked by myself before assembly. That will make a paint mixer out of a well balanced engine!

The discs are easily brought into balance by grinding a bit off the edge.

 

[JoeWay]

... I've had discs off as much as 20g when statically (single plane) checked by myself before assembly...

20g!! Wow!!!

I have wondered about disc balance, but assumed they would be inherently pretty well balanced. I am of the "balance separately" school, and have always been happy to pay the extra money. Now I'll pay extra to get the disc balanced, also.

Joe

 

[J and M Machine]

I would of sent it back with 20grams off almost an ounce out of balance.
Don't forget to wear a mask.!

 

[Dana Barlow]

You do not balance the disk normaly,it should never need it and if it dose then it was made FUBAR.
The clutch must be marked when balanced so it bolts in the very same bolt holes on flywheel it was balanced in. and all bolts and washers too must match each other .