Engine won't turn over

[foxfire42]

My A won't start! Well, it actually won't turn over so naturally it can't start unless it at least does that. It has a battery disconnect on it . At first I thought I forgot to turn the disconnect on but it's was on. Following is what I checked or tried not necessarily in this order.

1. Changed the starter switch as the rod and switch tube did not line up and caused the rod to bind on the firewall causing it not to engage the starter switch with my weak old lady legs. Still won't turn over!

2. Checked the battery charge. (6.27V) So checked to make sure the battery switch was not defective. Measured 6.27V at the starter switch.

3. I removed the battery cables from the one in the car, hooked up my spare battery directly to the starter switch and ground on the engine.
I know that the battery cable could be the problem thus I went direct. The starter made a groan and that was all.

4. Removed and bench tested the starter. WORKS GREAT.

5. While it was off I used the crank and manually turned the engine over with ease.

6. Two starters, two starter switches, two batteries and various ideas were tried. I wired up two 6V batteries in parallel and was able to get a slow motion engine turn over. Although the parallel 6V batteries don't change the voltage it does double the amperage. Both my batteries are rated 640CCA and 800CA. My last try and failure was with the 1600CA I didn't have my big charger with the Engine Start feature to try that.

I rarely give up but I'm getting close on this one. What am I overlooking?

I once had a starting problem on a tour and found the positive ground cable from the battery was frayed. Held the pieces together with a vise grip and finished the tour. I hope this problem is simple like that was but if it is I won't be embarrassed just disappointed I didn't fix it and had to ask for help.

 

[Synchro909]

Maybe the misalignment between the starter rod and the switch is preventing it working. What is the condition of the
contacts on the starter switch, the brushes and the commutator. I'd also check that the isolating switch is not faulty. If it is one of those with the green wheel on top and goes on the battery post, I threw mine in the trash where it belongs after it refused to connect.
That $%^ engine will start again!

 

[Pete]

My A won't start! Well, it actually won't turn over so naturally it can't start unless it at least does that. It has a battery disconnect on it . At first I thought I forgot to turn the disconnect on but it's was on. Following is what I checked or tried not necessarily in this order.

1. Changed the starter switch as the rod and switch tube did not line up and caused the rod to bind on the firewall causing it not to engage the starter switch with my weak old lady legs. Still won't turn over!

2. Checked the battery charge. (6.27V) So checked to make sure the battery switch was not defective. Measured 6.27V at the starter switch.

3. I removed the battery cables from the one in the car, hooked up my spare battery directly to the starter switch and ground on the engine.
I know that the battery cable could be the problem thus I went direct. The starter made a groan and that was all.

4. Removed and bench tested the starter. WORKS GREAT.

5. While it was off I used the crank and manually turned the engine over with ease.

6. Two starters, two starter switches, two batteries and various ideas were tried. I wired up two 6V batteries in parallel and was able to get a slow motion engine turn over. Although the parallel 6V batteries don't change the voltage it does double the amperage. Both my batteries are rated 640CCA and 800CA. My last try and failure was with the 1600CA I didn't have my big charger with the Engine Start feature to try that.

I rarely give up but I'm getting close on this one. What am I overlooking?

I once had a starting problem on a tour and found the positive ground cable from the battery was frayed. Held the pieces together with a vise grip and finished the tour. I hope this problem is simple like that was but if it is I won't be embarrassed just disappointed I didn't fix it and had to ask for help.

Why doesn't that starter rod meet the switch in a straight line? Mine does.
Since another starter had the same problem, that should eliminate the starter itself as the problem. You used separate cables so that should not be it. The engine turns free with the hand crank. No problem there.
One thing not to be ignored is, maybe your test parts have flaws.
I have seen starters free wind on the bench and not work in the car.
Another thing I say in humor to cheer you up on this matter is, someone may have cast a voo doo spell on your engine.

 

[jerrytocci]

Two things.
1. spray MMO in each cylinder and leave plugs out
2. prepare for a 12v jump by taking the starter switch off and run a red jump cable to the starter body and then touch the black 12v cable to the starter contact

 

[ronn]

more then anything to me, sounds like a bad ground. I would check all wiring first.....

dont think you have 2 bad starters under load, but crazier things have happened.

 

[nkaminar]

Jerry has the right approach, although you may want to try with the 6 volt battery. Eliminate as many variables as possible. Run new cables directly from battery to starter. Make sure the terminals on the battery and the connectors on the cables are shinny. Bolt the ground cable to a mounting bolt on the starter. Remove the starter switch and touch the other cable to the button on top of the starter. You may not need to take the plugs out as you say it turn over with the hand crank. If that works then start adding back things. Start with the starter switch without the rod, then add the rod. Add back the cables one at a time. If you need to, use a piece of wood as a lever to push on the starter switch without the rod attached.

 

[Marshall V. Daut]

Besides ensuring that the ground is good and clean as already suggested, make sure your cables are the larger 6volt versions, not the skinny 12volt, as found on many "restored" Model A's. The starter will not receive the necessary juice with 12volt cables. The ground should be a strap, not a cable, although a cable will work. The cable that is very often incorrect is the one from the battery to the starter switch. It is VERY important to use the correct sized cable here! Many slow-turning/non-turning starter problems can be traced to the use of a 12volt cable.
Just to reiterate, the place where the ground strap is bolted against the center crossmember MUST be shiny clean down to bare metal. A 6volt system is VERY dependent upon a good, clean ground. Remove the ground strap and sand away old paint and rust until you have reached bare metal. Until you have achieved a solid ground, the best starter in the world will not be able to do the job.
Marshall
ADDED: To help your electrical system, run an extra ground strap from the top of the transmission shift tower to the frame. This is an age-old practice that has helped many a Model A start and charge more efficiently, especially if the engine is sitting on Float-O-Motor mounts with their rubber donut supports. Does your car have these?

 

[jack backer]

Use a secondary ground (with adequate gage as described above) from the transmission tower to the battery. Ford used the engine splash pans to complete the circuit from the engine/ trans to frame, a cable is effective if your pans are gone.

 

[rotorwrench]

A dragging starter will generally still turn with no load on it. If a starter doesn't respond to a normal source of power and connection, a person needs to look no further than the starter. Bushings don't last forever and if there is enough wear, the armature can make contact with the field pole shoes. It could have a bad armature or field too. The OP has tried all else but may need to get into that starter and have all of the parts checked for serviceability. A growler and an ohms meter along with a good visual inspection will tell a person the whole story.

 

[Dino's A]

Good suggestions have been posted. But fix that starter rod misalignment
before anything. I bet that's your problem because of all the things you
checked, that situation has not been addressed. It might of been ok
like this before, but possibly now it has done something to cause this problem

 

[eagle]

Before you start throwing all kinds of parts and labor at it, use a voltmeter. Check from the starter power bolt/terminal to the starter case, press the starter button by hand, while measuing the voltage on the starter bolt/terminal. Does the voltage stay up or drop severely? If it drops, then check voltage from battery ground to starter bolt/terminal, not dropping? then its a bad ground. If no satisfaction, pull off starter button assembly, carefully touch battery cable directly to starter contact, measuring voltage. If you have good voltage at the starter terminal measuring to starter case, and it still won't turn, then you have a bad starter.

 

[1931 flamingo]

Did this problem just start??
Paul in CT

 

[foxfire42]

I don't know if this is a old or new issue. I bought the car last year and only had time to put it in storage until I returned from the winter in Tucson. I did drive it arpound the neighborhood (actually farmland) then into the garage after it was dropped off by the transporter. I did all the typical things to store it. Sea-Foam, battery maintainer etc, etc. I got a late start this summer to get it ready for touring and it's still in the garage waiting for me to figure out and solve the starting problem.

 

[Rob Doe]

2. Checked the battery charge. (6.27V) So checked to make sure the battery switch was not defective. Measured 6.27V at the starter switch.

If I remember correctly, a proper voltage test requires current to be flowing in the circuit as it's being tested. Eagle's post #11 seems proper to me. You can find a description of a complete testing of the Model A cranking circuit in Les Andrews (blue) "Trouble Shooting and Diagnosis" book. It has helpful drawings/pictures that helped me as a new owner.

 

[Gary WA]

My A won't start! Well, it actually won't turn over so naturally it can't start unless it at least does that. It has a battery disconnect on it . At first I thought I forgot to turn the disconnect on but it's was on. Following is what I checked or tried not necessarily in this order.

1. Changed the starter switch as the rod and switch tube did not line up and caused the rod to bind on the firewall causing it not to engage the starter switch with my weak old lady legs. Still won't turn over!

2. Checked the battery charge. (6.27V) So checked to make sure the battery switch was not defective. Measured 6.27V at the starter switch.

3. I removed the battery cables from the one in the car, hooked up my spare battery directly to the starter switch and ground on the engine.
I know that the battery cable could be the problem thus I went direct. The starter made a groan and that was all.

4. Removed and bench tested the starter. WORKS GREAT.

5. While it was off I used the crank and manually turned the engine over with ease.

6. Two starters, two starter switches, two batteries and various ideas were tried. I wired up two 6V batteries in parallel and was able to get a slow motion engine turn over. Although the parallel 6V batteries don't change the voltage it does double the amperage. Both my batteries are rated 640CCA and 800CA. My last try and failure was with the 1600CA I didn't have my big charger with the Engine Start feature to try that.

I rarely give up but I'm getting close on this one. What am I overlooking?

I once had a starting problem on a tour and found the positive ground cable from the battery was frayed. Held the pieces together with a vise grip and finished the tour. I hope this problem is simple like that was but if it is I won't be embarrassed just disappointed I didn't fix it and had to ask for help.

Rod should be straight in switch looks like the hole was filled in just below where the rod comes out???

 

[Gary WA]

My A won't start! Well, it actually won't turn over so naturally it can't start unless it at least does that. It has a battery disconnect on it . At first I thought I forgot to turn the disconnect on but it's was on. Following is what I checked or tried not necessarily in this order.

1. Changed the starter switch as the rod and switch tube did not line up and caused the rod to bind on the firewall causing it not to engage the starter switch with my weak old lady legs. Still won't turn over!

2. Checked the battery charge. (6.27V) So checked to make sure the battery switch was not defective. Measured 6.27V at the starter switch.

3. I removed the battery cables from the one in the car, hooked up my spare battery directly to the starter switch and ground on the engine.
I know that the battery cable could be the problem thus I went direct. The starter made a groan and that was all.

4. Removed and bench tested the starter. WORKS GREAT.

5. While it was off I used the crank and manually turned the engine over with ease.

6. Two starters, two starter switches, two batteries and various ideas were tried. I wired up two 6V batteries in parallel and was able to get a slow motion engine turn over. Although the parallel 6V batteries don't change the voltage it does double the amperage. Both my batteries are rated 640CCA and 800CA. My last try and failure was with the 1600CA I didn't have my big charger with the Engine Start feature to try that.

I rarely give up but I'm getting close on this one. What am I overlooking?

I once had a starting problem on a tour and found the positive ground cable from the battery was frayed. Held the pieces together with a vise grip and finished the tour. I hope this problem is simple like that was but if it is I won't be embarrassed just disappointed I didn't fix it and had to ask for help.

Is there a hidden fuse some where? Said u just purchased it? Glad to hear from you!!

 

[rotorwrench]

In the photo of the starter switch, it appears that the start pedal rod is not fully screwed into the switch actuator sleeve. The switch could also have a broken tip on the other end of that switch sleeve.

The OP mentions that the starter rod did not align with the switch properly. They don't always align well but there is generally enough play in the switch sleeve for it to be connected fully and still function. I would wonder what condition the starter rod grommet is in that attaches to the toe board. There are several types in 30 & 31 and I can't tell which one it has for certain but that could affect starter rod alignment. If the starter has been shimmed with gaskets for bendix alignment then that can also affect the starter switch position and rod alignment.

 

[Benson]

Some of the battery disconnects are known to fail internally (even when new) did you try removing this totally from the circuit?

The ones that are a knob connected to the battery post are the most un-reliable ones.

 

[Rob Doe]

Back in 2013 there were some repro switches with an angle issue as shown in the photo. Go to the Search Menu at the very top of the screen and enter, starter switch wrong angle, and hit enter.


In the list that pops up, near the bottom is a thread titled, starter switch.


H.L. Chauvin has a post that describes the problem and the fix.

 

[Rob Doe]

Here is a copy of Henry's post:

Hi 41, Had exact same problem expressed in an earlier post on about 07/18/2013 after just buying two (2) "new" starter switches.

My old & two (2) new switches were hanging up in the "ON" position whereby the pedal rod could not rise into the "OFF" position -- starter kept rotating while engine was running.

These new switches are hefty & well made; however, the small "circular" metal opening for the threaded female switch rod tube is so tight & small that the switch's threaded female rod tube angle cannot be adjusted.

Think all new ones from Vintique are like that.

Quick Fix:

1. Mount switch on starter & place a 5" high by 6" long piece of vertical cardboard immediately adjacent to the engine side of the switch.

2. With a pencil, very carefully trace the "exact" profile of the starter switch, the starter switch rod tube angle, & the starter pedal rod angle to witness that the starter switch rod tube angle has to be changed for proper alignment with the "operable" starter switch pedal rod when it moves up & down at an angle in the "ON" & "OFF" position.

3. With a Dremel tool & an abrasive cylinder, carefully grind the new switch's metal circular opening until it is elliptical; hence, such that the starter rod tube angle can be adjusted up & down in the enlarged elliptical opening to match the angle of the starter pedal rod.

4. Be careful to first get the "exact" angle required from your cardboard diagram so as to not make the switch's elliptical opening too large.

5. Worked for me -- little at a time, patience, & try until you get it right to where it cannot jam & stick in the depressed "ON" position.