Engine Machine Shops Rejections

[RobWi]

Part of the reason I am attempting to utilize this particular engine is because it is an exact rendition of the last one my father had in his favorite car.

He bought the car when he was seventeen (1947), kept it for twenty three years as his favorite, repowered it multiple times in those twenty three years. The last engine he had was based on a '47 59a block with a 8BA crank, rods, and pistons. Valve train was updated to the 8BA valves, keepers, and guides with Zephyr valve springs. Just like this engine has.

Quite sure this is not the same engine, but it is a close copy.

Part of this endeavor is to hopefully find my Dad's old car.. see picture. Last time I knew of where it was, was in the Marinette area of Wisconsin in the late '70's.

 

[RobWi]

You could set up electrolytic rust removal or the molasses de rust
what is the existing bore size? I took a little sliver of wood and put a pin through it to figure depth of pitting to help determine how much more it would take to clean up.
The ultrasonic thickness gauge is not that expensive.
Magnaflux on the cheap— use armature growler and make .001 or so cuts on brake lathe to make powder ( the real powder is not that expensive though and works better)
How large is your garage? Do you have 3 phase power— those machines usually cheaper because most home shops don’t have it
Of course the older machine shop equipment that is reasonably priced will need repairs and calibration (read machine tool reconditioning and principles of hand scraping by Edward Connelly)
Study cast Iron welding— the rust around the #7 exhaust seat looks like it is well beyond the seat.
A milling machine and a lathe is handy — of course tight accurate ones cost more but since you read the book you will know how to fix that.
A nice granite surface plate for measuring against and some measuring tools— don’t forget the standards to check accuracy
Soon your wife will be telling her friends that you have a “girlfriend “ — it is that new machine in the garage that you are restoring to work on your block

Why not just bore the entire cylinders out like the one in the picture?

 

[petehoovie]

Part of the reason I am attempting to utilize this particular engine is because it is an exact rendition of the last one my father had in his favorite car.

He bought the car when he was seventeen (1947), kept it for twenty three years as his favorite, repowered it multiple times in those twenty three years. The last engine he had was based on a '47 59a block with a 8BA crank, rods, and pistons. Valve train was updated to the 8BA valves, keepers, and guides with Zephyr valve springs. Just like this engine has.

Quite sure this is not the same engine, but it is a close copy.

Part of this endeavor is to hopefully find my Dad's old car.. see picture. Last time I knew of where it was, was in the Marinette area of Wisconsin in the late '70's.

 

[petehoovie]

Why not just bore the entire cylinders out like the one in the picture?

 

[Unclebilly]

How much are you willing to spend on this? Rebuilding a good flathead is not cheap, I can’t see what you propose with the subject engine being much under $10k. It just won’t be, honest machine shop or not.

Are you willing to spend that sort of money?

What is your budget? Toss out a number.

You can buy a running flathead in a old farm truck for $2500 or less.

 

[Bored&Stroked]

When you bore the cylinders out of the block (like that one shown) you weaken the connection between the deck surface and the rest of the block. While one can hope that all the cylinders will seal, in some cases the deck moves around and you get leaks around some of the sleeves. I try to put as few sleeves in as possible (given my bore diameter goals). My preferred bore for a high-performance build is usually 3 5/16. But one needs to sonic test the block to see how much material is available to work with.

 

[RobWi]

When you bore the cylinders out of the block (like that one shown) you weaken the connection between the deck surface and the rest of the block. While one can hope that all the cylinders will seal, in some cases the deck moves around and you get leaks around some of the sleeves. I try to put as few sleeves in as possible (given my bore diameter goals). My preferred bore for a high-performance build is usually 3 5/16. But one needs to sonic test the block to see how much material is available to work with.

Thank you for the advice. Again, not well versed on the structural integrity of the flatheads. But have sleeved all eight cylinders of modern (well from the sixties and seventies) OHV V8's for racing back in the day. In fact, completely bored out the existing block bores and replaced with high nickel sleeves and raced that engine on circle tracks without an issue. But that was a Ford 427 side oiler. Figured if Holmen and Moody could do that, and the engine held up to win Le Mans, I could too.

This farmer in the Dakotas did this to a flathead, said he did it years ago and it is still running to this day. I find it a tad bit scary. But...

Do not think that the block I have will need to be taken out that far. #4 is already sleeved. Based on my "old" research there should be enough meat around the cracks of the cylinders to still offer longitudinal rigidity. The one in the pictures is extreme (see attached, it is the #6 cylinder), still apparently doable though. Right now, it looks like I would need to sleeve #2, #6, and #8 at a minimum.
Believe the nominal wall thickness on a stock block is approximately .300", of course sonic testing will be necessary to determine where core shifting might inhibit how much can be taken out. That should allow for up to a 3.587" OD sleeve bore, leaving about .100" nominal around the sleeve. All the cylinder cracks will need to be stress relieved by drilling a hole at the base and top of each crack. That should help keep the bored out cylinder from extending the crack. Sleeve option I would initially use would be a Melling CSL205 with a 3.187 ID and 3.4405 OD... that would still safely give me the option of having 3.312" pistons.

 

[RobWi]

How much are you willing to spend on this? Rebuilding a good flathead is not cheap, I can’t see what you propose with the subject engine being much under $10k. It just won’t be, honest machine shop or not.

Are you willing to spend that sort of money?

What is your budget? Toss out a number.

You can buy a running flathead in a old farm truck for $2500 or less.

The concern is not the money necessarily but challenge. Just hate throwing anything away. People in Pakistan and India can make what is complete garbage back to a usable form, why can't we?

At the same token, do not believe in being taken advantage of either.

$2500 for a running engine, that might or might not be in the best shape is just as much a gamble.

This hardly seems outrageous, from H&H website.

Hot Tank: $50
Pressure Seal: $120
Resurface 3 Sides: $150
Bore & Hone: $210
Acid Dip: $100
1 Sleeve: $90
Each additional Sleeve: $55

A little over a grand??? Spend that much taking my five kids, their kids, and their spouses out for dinner once a month.

My only issue is, they are over 2000 miles away. Trying to find one a bit closer.

 

[barnfind08]

Call me and I will give you a number of a guy who will do what you want. 320-309-2580 Fred

 

[Phatt]

We come across this now and then. When it comes to spending 1000s of dollars on something that can be done for 1/10 th price or less and the owner just won’t listen? We won’t touch the job. Most times it not going to up to our standards and first problem is always the shops fault. When you’re backed up months with a good reputation you don’t need customers telling you how to do the work. We aren’t in India we’re workers are paid 50 cents a day. More like shops are 200+ per hour.
But understand the dream..

 

[RobWi]

We come across this now and then. When it comes to spending 1000s of dollars on something that can be done for 1/10 th price or less and the owner just won’t listen? We won’t touch the job. Most times it not going to up to our standards and first problem is always the shops fault. When you’re backed up months with a good reputation you don’t need customers telling you how to do the work. We aren’t in India we’re workers are paid 50 cents a day. More like shops are 200+ per hour.
But understand the dream..

The reference to India and Pakistan had nothing to do with the cost. Again, do not understand why everyone keeps bringing that up. What I am alluding to is that they repair, rebuild, and put on the road stuff that we (a generalization) send to the crusher. Do not believe that is what Henry Ford envisioned back in the day.

As far as a time frame, any time in the next year would be fine, no rush.

But arrogance eliminates those that think they are better than others, especially when they are tooting their own horn. Customer referrals would be better.

H&H has, from what I found, a great reputation pertaining to flatheads. Probably since that is all they do. Did you consider their pricing to be too low?

 

[Phatt]

The reference to India and Pakistan had nothing to do with the cost. Again, do not understand why everyone keeps bringing that up. What I am alluding to is that they repair, rebuild, and put on the road stuff that we (a generalization) send to the crusher. Do not believe that is what Henry Ford envisioned back in the day.

As far as a time frame, any time in the next year would be fine, no rush.

But arrogance eliminates those that think they are better than others, especially when they are tooting their own horn. Customer referrals would be better.

H&H has, from what I found, a great reputation pertaining to flatheads. Probably since that is all they do. Did you consider their pricing to be too low?

The reference with India is they can fix things we toss…. But i sure wouldn’t use any of the junk they fix .Its crude garbage but its all they have. But i think HH is where you should go. Hot tank a block price alone i would keep them busy if close by.Excellent prices. No arrogance here just experienced and truthful.See it the last 55 years customers most times aren’t always their best advocates . But HH looks like a good bet. Shipping with some of the carriers should be worth it.
Hey good luck.

 

[tubman]

The reference with India is they can fix things we toss…. But i sure wouldn’t use any of the junk they fix ��.Its crude garbage but its all they have. But i think HH is where you should go. Hot tank a block price alone i would keep them busy if close by.Excellent prices. No arrogance here just experienced and truthful.See it the last 55 years customers most times aren’t always their best advocates . But HH looks like a good bet. Shipping with some of the carriers should be worth it.
Hey good luck.

If you don't believe this, a quick trip through "YouTube" will yield some unbelievable things they do with welders, charcoal-fired forges, cutting torches, and old belt-driven lathes, all while working barefoot.

 

[bobH]

H&H is certainly a source. And I post this from the position of having personally dealt with Mike. The reputation is there, although I have also read negative comments. Personally, I would go to Mike again. I have the advantage of being able to go to his shop on a breakfast or lunch run. Having said that, I also mention that we have other flathead shops nearby. I would think you should be able to find someone closer to you. Maybe post on hamb or the Model A sites that you are looking for a shop. Maybe try EFV8 club members in your area. Or the EFV8 parts places, like Third Gen, for example. Or, maybe Kube, who posts here. Obviously, just random thoughts.

 

[Unclebilly]

Maybe send it to India or Pakistan and get those guys to fix it if that’s what you are going for.

Honestly, I would buy a 40 ford first (maybe even your dad’s old car). It might come with a better engine than you are starting with and you can use your engine for parts.

I like watching the YouTube videos of the repairs in developing countries too but understand, they are making these repairs out of desperation because new parts are either not available or their time is less valuable than the parts would cost.

In North America, we can get parts for our old flatheads still. As mentioned above, shop costs are ~$200/ hr so we tend to replace instead of fixing.

Good luck with your project. I have had no problem finding good flatheads for under $1000 and you can buy an old low mileage grain truck for around $2000 around here.

 

[petehoovie]

Maybe send it to India or Pakistan and get those guys to fix it if that’s what you are going for.

Honestly, I would buy a 40 ford first (maybe even your dad’s old car). It might come with a better engine than you are starting with and you can use your engine for parts.

I like watching the YouTube videos of the repairs in developing countries too but understand, they are making these repairs out of desperation because new parts are either not available or their time is less valuable than the parts would cost.

In North America, we can get parts for our old flatheads still. As mentioned above, shop costs are ~$200/ hr so we tend to replace instead of fixing.

Good luck with your project. I have had no problem finding good flatheads for under $1000 and you can buy an old low mileage grain truck for around $2000 around here.

 

[rich b]

If you want to get something going on your own; why not buy a chunk of 3/4" plexiglass, dig out one of the old head gaskets and a water pump gasket as patterns, take some hole saws, and make a couple fixtures and do your own pressure checks as a first step. No machine shop, no special tools, and maybe the satisfaction of doing it yourself.

 

[GB SISSON]

If you want to get something going on your own; why not buy a chunk of 3/4" plexiglass, dig out one of the old head gaskets and a water pump gasket as patterns, take some hole saws, and make a couple fixtures and do your own pressure checks as a first step. No machine shop, no special tools, and maybe the satisfaction of doing it yourself.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=321011&highlight=testing+blocks+home

This is a thread from a couple years ago in which I work through the process of building what is required to both magnaflux and pressure test one of our blocks. I'm not from India or Pakistan, just the son of a couple of SE Massachusetts 'Swamp Yankees' who taught me to:

Use it up
Wear it out
Make it do
Or do without.

 

[Phatt]

If you don't believe this, a quick trip through "YouTube" will yield some unbelievable things they do with welders, charcoal-fired forges, cutting torches, and old belt-driven lathes, all while working barefoot.

Well aware of the joke c r a p on utube of truck frames. Crankshafts and gears being welded together with rod and batteries. Wake up its utube. Probably better to listen to guys that do this stuff for a living. Not utube university…. Its a joke

 

[Jack E/NJ]

> They might feel that this is a vanity project for me, and to some extent it is. But I also have an underlying sentimental reason for this particular engine.>


Bingo!