disributor timing marks
- Thread starter 31chevy
- Start date
hardtimes
Well-known member
Hey Gary,
I've been told that the answer is two per mark. Still haven't seen that in writing though. But, that's what I'm going by.
Gary....CORRECTION: each mark worth FOUR degree(see helmet discuss above).
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Hoop
Well-known member
hardtimes,
The only reference to 4 degrees in the other post is what FlatheadTed wrote:
"When the advance plate is set on a KR Wilson its around about one notch above the center line.that will give you roughly the 4 Deg advance."
This is a bit of a head-scratcher.
First, trusting that the marks on the index plate EXACTLY relate to EXACT timing degree points would probably be a mistake.
There are in fact 7 marks. And, by design, the middle one may be 0 degrees of initial advance. However, the actual history of an individual distributor may make this undependable and that makes using some other method, such as the KR Wilson, to set the initial advance a good idea.
After doing lots of distributors on a fixture such as the KRW, you'll probably find most end up aligned with the 3rd mark from the bottom ... which I'd call one below the center ... Ted has that Southern Hemisphere thing going and in New Zealand it might be one above the center.
If one were going to "guess" at which mark to use, most would favor a notch more of advance, meaning below the "center" mark.
Back to 31chevy's question. Each notch should be 4 degrees ... crankshaft degrees. The "two per mark" answer would be correct if you're talking distributor degrees. The crankshaft rotates twice for each distributor rotation.
The only reference to 4 degrees in the other post is what FlatheadTed wrote:
"When the advance plate is set on a KR Wilson its around about one notch above the center line.that will give you roughly the 4 Deg advance."
This is a bit of a head-scratcher.
First, trusting that the marks on the index plate EXACTLY relate to EXACT timing degree points would probably be a mistake.
There are in fact 7 marks. And, by design, the middle one may be 0 degrees of initial advance. However, the actual history of an individual distributor may make this undependable and that makes using some other method, such as the KR Wilson, to set the initial advance a good idea.
After doing lots of distributors on a fixture such as the KRW, you'll probably find most end up aligned with the 3rd mark from the bottom ... which I'd call one below the center ... Ted has that Southern Hemisphere thing going and in New Zealand it might be one above the center.
If one were going to "guess" at which mark to use, most would favor a notch more of advance, meaning below the "center" mark.
Back to 31chevy's question. Each notch should be 4 degrees ... crankshaft degrees. The "two per mark" answer would be correct if you're talking distributor degrees. The crankshaft rotates twice for each distributor rotation.
FlatheadTed
Well-known member
Hoop I think we are saying the same thing , I Use one above the center ,Taking the static mark as the reference you move advance plate up,As for 4 Degrees I think the 0 mark has the 4 Deg already built in so any advance from there would be deg per mark .= 6 Deg to the first mark (cam Deg ),I would have to verify this though ,I think you can take libertys with the adv plate up tp 3 notches and road test the car.below the center can give a loss of power and possable overheating.
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Hoop
Well-known member
Ted,
Yes, moving the plate up advances the timing. But, what you and I call the center mark may or may not actually be 0 degrees. The point gap determines the accuracy of that center mark.
If you put the distributor on a Sun machine and move the index around, it'll give a 2 degree change per mark ... those are distributor degrees as I mentioned.
HOWEVER, as you know from messing around with your KRW and Wasco, the point gap (especially on the left side points) affects the initial timing. Change the point gap and the initial advance will change. This is why simply setting the distributor with feeler gauges and guessing at the index setting can be off a bit. Timing fixtures like yours take that into account and verify the settings.
It all makes for a great discussion that we all can learn from. For example, I mentioned chalk marks on the pulley and someone called that half-assed ... it does give folks another perspective into what's really happening. Who cares where TDC is if you are trying to determine the advance range. Similarly, if you want to locate TDC, you can set up your distributor on a KRW/Wasco, and it will indicate TDC ... for sure, 4 degrees BTDC ... for you.
Hopefully guys like "hardtimes" are encouraged to try it themselves and preserve the hobby.
Thanks for your comments and for allowing me to tease about "down under." Others appreciate your info as well, I'm sure.
Yes, moving the plate up advances the timing. But, what you and I call the center mark may or may not actually be 0 degrees. The point gap determines the accuracy of that center mark.
If you put the distributor on a Sun machine and move the index around, it'll give a 2 degree change per mark ... those are distributor degrees as I mentioned.
HOWEVER, as you know from messing around with your KRW and Wasco, the point gap (especially on the left side points) affects the initial timing. Change the point gap and the initial advance will change. This is why simply setting the distributor with feeler gauges and guessing at the index setting can be off a bit. Timing fixtures like yours take that into account and verify the settings.
It all makes for a great discussion that we all can learn from. For example, I mentioned chalk marks on the pulley and someone called that half-assed ... it does give folks another perspective into what's really happening. Who cares where TDC is if you are trying to determine the advance range. Similarly, if you want to locate TDC, you can set up your distributor on a KRW/Wasco, and it will indicate TDC ... for sure, 4 degrees BTDC ... for you.
Hopefully guys like "hardtimes" are encouraged to try it themselves and preserve the hobby.
Thanks for your comments and for allowing me to tease about "down under." Others appreciate your info as well, I'm sure.
Kahuna
Well-known member
Hoop
I don't think chalk marks are "half-assed" at all. To me, one of the most important things is to really know where TDC is on your engine. Since there are no marks originally, I make a pointer and use the piston stop method to determine TDC, then mark the pulley accordingly. After a while the mark is difficult to see, so I'll clean the pulley and apply chalk to be able to find it with a timing light. Once done, you can readily see the movement to determine that the advance is working.
Just my way of doing it.
Jim
I don't think chalk marks are "half-assed" at all. To me, one of the most important things is to really know where TDC is on your engine. Since there are no marks originally, I make a pointer and use the piston stop method to determine TDC, then mark the pulley accordingly. After a while the mark is difficult to see, so I'll clean the pulley and apply chalk to be able to find it with a timing light. Once done, you can readily see the movement to determine that the advance is working.
Just my way of doing it.
Jim
Tom Walker
Senior Member
Hi, I would like to mark my flywheel pulley with the correct timing at static and then when fully advanced. Please can you tell me the CRANKSHAFT degrees for those 2? Any figures relating revs would be helpful too thanks.
This is for a 1934 V8 dizzy.
The crank pulley is 5.1" dia., so 15.7" in circumference, so roughly 23 degrees per inch will be my starting point for marking. I will find TDC on #1 cylinder with a stop, then mark the degrees from there, and use #1 plug lead to trigger my timing gun. Thats the theory anyway!
Thanks, Tom.
This is for a 1934 V8 dizzy.
The crank pulley is 5.1" dia., so 15.7" in circumference, so roughly 23 degrees per inch will be my starting point for marking. I will find TDC on #1 cylinder with a stop, then mark the degrees from there, and use #1 plug lead to trigger my timing gun. Thats the theory anyway!
Thanks, Tom.
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Tom Walker
Senior Member
Just done what I should have done first and searched the forum. It seems that its 4 deg advance static, and 16 deg in the dizzy, which is 20 deg in total. Is this right? 20 degrees is not much advance. Most cars are 30 to 35 total advance. Usually the more efficient, the less advance, and a flatty is not the first word in efficient combustion !
Walt Dupont--Me.
Well-known member
Most stock flatheads only want about 24 total. Probably cruising on a flat road you could use about 28* for better gas mileage. Walt
If you read my book you will understand why our Flatheads need so little ignition advance and why most people use too much. You will also see why more advance can be used under "cruise, light load" conditions than when maximum power is called for at WOT(wide open throttle)
Each engine can be considered an individual with the characteristics of only THAT individual. However, there are some basic parameters that all engines, using similar components, fit into. I have never tested any Flathead engine that could use more than 22 degrees of advance at WOT. In fairness, I have never tested a stock 1934 engine with 5to1 Compression ratio. So, with modern, 87 octane gasoline, slightly more advance might be called for on such an engine.
Each engine can be considered an individual with the characteristics of only THAT individual. However, there are some basic parameters that all engines, using similar components, fit into. I have never tested any Flathead engine that could use more than 22 degrees of advance at WOT. In fairness, I have never tested a stock 1934 engine with 5to1 Compression ratio. So, with modern, 87 octane gasoline, slightly more advance might be called for on such an engine.
31chevy
Well-known member
I want to thank all of you for your info. I should probably explain why I wanted to know. The distributor in question was (supposedly) set up on a distributor machine, however when I would start it it would buck especially when warmed up. My 34 has new starter, solenoid, heavy cables, optima battery,starter button with extra ground wire etc. I found out that if I left ign. off and spun the engine then turned on the switch it would start immediatly. So I figured too far advanced but did not want to fool with timing until I had some idea as to how much I would be changing it. I retarded it a little at a time and I think the problem is solved. (sorry for the long thread) Engine has 1100 miles on it now so it should not be tight ?
Gary.
Gary.
hardtimes
Well-known member
Hey Kahuna,
Who made such a 'half-assed' comment...about Hoops' chalk mark remarks
? Let me say that I agree with your remarks here AND Hoops remarks/process/homemade pointer, regarding chalk marking. I use a slightly different mark (white paint..dries hard/lasts a long time,eh
). Now , I admit that I don't have KRW/Sun machines..bummer, and never have. But, I've always had/used CHALK and antique timey light thing. Since hector was a pup, this minimal equipment has always done the job! Ok, it's an ole wifes tale that you can't teach an ole guy NEW tricks...so , I'm trying to keep up with FlatheadTed/Hoop et,al... JWL and his tech talk, hm..I'm still trying!! Geeze, might even go racing if this thing gets timed 'right'
Pictured is my 'finished' product '36 era dist and appropriate new fangled equipment timey tools (slightly used) that..even does chevs/studys/etc.
Caveat: when using this high tech stuff..keep away from fan/ exhaust manifold(don't ask how know!). Bought the accessory that plugs into #1 plug wire..keep that from exhaust maniford too,eh!!
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FlatheadTed
Well-known member
Just to make this a bit clearer the 4 deg is crank shaft Deg ,The KR teck sheet states that there timer starts at 2 Deg at the cam, so from 0 it has deg built in .
1937pickup
Well-known member
Does this discussion only apply to the helmet style distributor? I run a crab and have used the vaccuum gauge method for timing my 59. Set to max vaccuum, take for road test and if no ping-good to go. Are we overthinking these old engines?