32 tie rod material grade

[acchaplin]

Originally Posted by rich b View Post

I should have included pictures with the explainations/problems. However,,,,,,,, I am NOT fmailiar with all this new fangled 'lectric doo dads and gee haws'! With my big hands and fingers, I can not hold or operate these new phones. (rotary dial is my preference. I don't have to "push one for English")
I have to get some family member, (at THEIR time) daughter or grandson to take the pictures I want. THEN someone else (at their time) to move the pictures to another gizmo. THEN someone else (at their time) to post the pictures (many times with problems) on these vehicular web sites I am on. It can take up to several weeks for me to get pictures posted.

 

[rotorwrench]

You may be able to tackle the problem a different way. Cut a small disk from some thin sheet metal stock that will fit inside the socket before installing the spring and cup. This may hold the grease in. The other thing that has been an issue is the length of reproduction tie rods. Model A through 1934 basically all use the same rod at 43.5". There are some available that are 44" long but some folks can't get the toe in set properly with the longer rod. Some are 43.5" and some are 44" some may be less than 43.5". The early 1928 models had a 42.5" tie rod but the design was changed in later 1928 production. In 1935 they got even longer but I think they changed the rod ends that year.

 

[rich b]

unh,,,,,, tell you what. Next time you just happen to be "bench racing" with a machinest. Just ask him how 'easy' it would be for him to take a 40" long, 3/4 OD....... Lets change that. Picture this. A 3' long, 1" OD rod, sticking out of a 3 or 4 jaw machinest lathe chuck, 32" away a center drill stop holding that end spinning at 600-1000 rpm,,,,,,,,,,. Even with a steady rest in the middle of all that.
There would be more set up time (couple of hours?) in turning a very long, small diameter rod down than it is worth.

I have explained it above. The tire rod threads 'into' a tie rod end housing in the olden daze. inside that tie rod end housing was a ball stud, two caps a spring and a adjustment nut. The tie rod was intended to be dissambled and rebuilt. (now it is quicker to just replace the entire tie rod end)
The tie rod housing has a 'pinch slot' and a moulded clamp. Some housing ends that clamp is a seperate piece. That clamp is to tighten the housing around the rod after toe adjustmant.
What my problem is that my tie rod is too short. Picture this. Say, the end housing has 2" of threads inside of it. The 'pinch slot' is 1 3/4" long. After toe adjustment my tie rod is threaded into the end housing 1 1/2" on each side. Leaving a 1/4" of that slot open! When greasing, the grease should be squishing around the caps and ball stud. Not following the path of least resistance and freely flowing out that 1/4" open slot. The tie rod should be threaded in past the end of the 'pinch slot' to seal it.

Just for 'shits and giggles' I googled 32 Ford tie rod lengths. Came up with several measurments/lengths listed. Two measurements listed that pertain to my situation was, 43 1/4" and 44" My OEM rod measures 43 3/8" long.

After your initial post about the "open" slots; I looked at some '32 tie rod ends I took apart a few days ago. This seemed to me to indicate that if the tie rod was adjusted long enough to "open" the slots it would result in massive toe-in.

That's why I asked why the stock length was too short for your car; but based on the numbers you posted it seems like you have quite different parts from these.

The '32 tie rod ends I took apart a couple days ago have 1-1/4" long slots, the internal threads are about 1-3/4" deep, and the tie rod was screwed into the ends 1-5/8" which covered the slot.

Note the original tie was a tube (with plugs in the ends) which would be more rigid than a solid shaft.

While I'm not a professional machinist; it doesn't seem like it would be overly complicated to put the 3/4" round stock half way thru the chuck with a live center on the end and turn it down, using the follower rest if needed; then flipping it and doing the other half. Could even use the support rest (that we use for long 7/8" tube) on end hanging out of back of the spindle if needed to prevent whip.

 

[petehoovie]

After your initial post about the "open" slots; I looked at some '32 tie rod ends I took apart a few days ago. This seemed to me to indicate that if the tie rod was adjusted long enough to "open" the slots it would result in massive toe-in.

That's why I asked why the stock length was too short for your car; but based on the numbers you posted it seems like you have quite different parts from these.

The '32 tie rod ends I took apart a couple days ago have 1-1/4" long slots, the internal threads are about 1-3/4" deep, and the tie rod was screwed into the ends 1-5/8" which covered the slot.

Note the original tie was a tube (with plugs in the ends) which would be more rigid than a solid shaft.

While I'm not a professional machinist; it doesn't seem like it would be overly complicated to put the 3/4" round stock half way thru the chuck with a live center on the end and turn it down, using the follower rest if needed; then flipping it and doing the other half. Could even use the support rest (that we use for long 7/8" tube) on end hanging out of back of the spindle if needed to prevent whip.

 

[Mart]

Why is your rod too short?

Is this a non-standard setup? Was the rod used previously in a non-standard setup and shortened?

If the axle and spindles are stock, surely a stock rod would be the correct length?

Would it be easier to find a stock rod?

Ok, lets say none of that is relevant and you want to widen yours. Could a short piece be cut from a second tie rod and welded in? Could two rods be joined to get the desired length?

For all practical purposes, the metal is workable and weldable.

I have lengthened one by cutting it near one end, on the plain part, tapping both sides, tapping straight through a filler piece cut from a second rod, screwing them all together and welding. From memory i used a 12mm tap, with generous vee-ing at the joints.

I don't know why but gut feeling tells me it is better to make the join near one end than in the middle.

If it makes you feel any better, the tie rod only steers the passenger side wheel. The drivers side wheel is steered by the drag link and the tie rod transfers that motion to the passenger side wheel.

But back to the original question, why is your rod too short?

Mart.

 

[PeteVS]

I've made up a couple of tie rods and drag links using the "common" tie rod ends. The threads are 11/16-18. Speedway has the RH and LH taps. I got mine from them and I think they were a worthwhile buy. https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Industrial-Taps-11-16-Inch-18-SAE-Thread-LH-and-RH-Pair,414091.html For tubing stock, I went to the local metal guys and got a length of 7/8" OD by 1/8" WALL and everything worked out well. With one of the first I did, I didn't get the tap properly lined up with the tube. It wasn't pretty. But, then I found out that a piece of common 1/2" copper water tube fits nicely over the tap shank and into a very short scrap piece of the 7/8" tubing. I clamped both the tie rod tube and the guide tube into a piece of angle iron to get the tap started on center.

 

[glennpm]

Good tip Pete:

"But, then I found out that a piece of common 1/2" copper water tube fits nicely over the tap shank and into a very short scrap piece of the 7/8" tubing. I clamped both the tie rod tube and the guide tube into a piece of angle to get the tap started on center."

 

[RB]

I thought it strange that Ford used the uncommon 24 fine thread as opposed to the more common 18 thread in later years, & can only surmise it was to provide a more precise fine tune adjustment.

 

[acchaplin]

After your initial post about the "open" slots; I looked at some '32 tie rod ends I took apart a few days ago. This seemed to me to indicate that if the tie rod was adjusted long enough to "open" the slots it would result in massive toe-in.

That's why I asked why the stock length was too short for your car; but based on the numbers you posted it seems like you have quite different parts from these.

The '32 tie rod ends I took apart a couple days ago have 1-1/4" long slots, the internal threads are about 1-3/4" deep, and the tie rod was screwed into the ends 1-5/8" which covered the slot.

Note the original tie was a tube (with plugs in the ends) which would be more rigid than a solid shaft.

While I'm not a professional machinist; it doesn't seem like it would be overly complicated to put the 3/4" round stock half way thru the chuck with a live center on the end and turn it down, using the follower rest if needed; then flipping it and doing the other half. Could even use the support rest (that we use for long 7/8" tube) on end hanging out of back of the spindle if needed to prevent whip.

NO WONDER!! Your pictures explains it all!! Never would have I thouight! THANK YOU!

I couldn't understand why a 1/2" OD solid rod 40" long would weigh just as much as my 43 3/8" long 11/16" OD tie rod! Also, a short 2' something long 3/4" OD rod (used as 'mock up' to see what a 3/4" rod would look like as a tie rod) would weigh MORE than my tie rod. It just didn't make sense!

With your pictures it explains it all! No wonder there is a weight difference! The OEM tie rod is NOT solid all the way through, but a TUBE! Look at the amount of steel Henry was saving. Anyway.

Your tie rod housings are differnt from mine.

I am going to suffer and request family take pictures (they are going to do what they always do, roll their eyes and complain) and posted showing EXACTLY what I am talking about. (it will probably end confusion and answer ALL questions on you guys part).

I have a sneaking suspicion what you guys are going to say when you see what my tie rod housings look like. I have been getting those comments all along this build.

Also. Since the tie rod is a 'tube' it can be lengthened/welded on correctly much safer/easier than a solid rod.

Give me several daze to get the pictures processed. thanks

 

[NealinCA]

I've used 4140 from Online Metals. Available in 48" lengths

https://www.onlinemetals.com/en/buy...round-bar-4140-annealed-cold-finish/pid/15487

 

[acchaplin]

OK, here are the pictures!
Took the assembled/adjusted (ball stud, cap and spring, adjustment nut tightened down all the way, then backed off one full turn) tie rod ends, screwed them by hand all the way down (no threads showing) on the tie rod, both sides.
Set the entire assembly down on the spindle arms, and tightened the ball stud nuts. Lots of toe out.
Turned the tie rod (by hand) out until I had appromimately 1/16" (tape measured, one end hooked into tire tread.) Just wanted something close to be able to roll car back and forth. Final adjustment was to be made on a front end alighment machine. There was 7/16" of tie rod threads showing on each end.
Shot some grease into the ends, noticed the grease flowing freely out the slotted housing where the tie rod end wasn't threaded past the slot.
That is where I surmised that my tie rod was 3/4", 3/8" per side, too short.
In the pictures I pointed a light down into the housing end showing the 1/8" open pinch slot where the grease was freely flowing out.
By extending the tie rod 3/4" I am putting more threads into each end housing, still having plenty of adjustment left for (more) correct 3/32" toe in.

 

[petehoovie]

OK, here are the pictures!
Took the assembled/adjusted (ball stud, cap and spring, adjustment nut tightened down all the way, then backed off one full turn) tie rod ends, screwed them by hand all the way down (no threads showing) on the tie rod, both sides.
Set the entire assembly down on the spindle arms, and tightened the ball stud nuts. Lots of toe out.
Turned the tie rod (by hand) out until I had appromimately 1/16" (tape measured, one end hooked into tire tread.) Just wanted something close to be able to roll car back and forth. Final adjustment was to be made on a front end alighment machine. There was 7/16" of tie rod threads showing on each end.
Shot some grease into the ends, noticed the grease flowing freely out the slotted housing where the tie rod end wasn't threaded past the slot.
That is where I surmised that my tie rod was 3/4", 3/8" per side, too short.
In the pictures I pointed a light down into the housing end showing the 1/8" open pinch slot where the grease was freely flowing out.
By extending the tie rod 3/4" I am putting more threads into each end housing, still having plenty of adjustment left for (more) correct 3/32" toe in.

 

[acchaplin]

Why is your rod too short?

Is this a non-standard setup? Was the rod used previously in a non-standard setup and shortened?

If the axle and spindles are stock, surely a stock rod would be the correct length?

Would it be easier to find a stock rod?

Ok, lets say none of that is relevant and you want to widen yours. Could a short piece be cut from a second tie rod and welded in? Could two rods be joined to get the desired length?

For all practical purposes, the metal is workable and weldable.

I have lengthened one by cutting it near one end, on the plain part, tapping both sides, tapping straight through a filler piece cut from a second rod, screwing them all together and welding. From memory i used a 12mm tap, with generous vee-ing at the joints.

I don't know why but gut feeling tells me it is better to make the join near one end than in the middle.

If it makes you feel any better, the tie rod only steers the passenger side wheel. The drivers side wheel is steered by the drag link and the tie rod transfers that motion to the passenger side wheel.

But back to the original question, why is your rod too short?

Mart.

Do my pictures answer your questions?

 

[Randy in ca]

What's the source of the rod ends you're using? Any chance the length of them is
off by 3/8" (?).

 

[acchaplin]

What's the source of the rod ends you're using? Any chance the length of them is
off by 3/8" (?).

As far as I know the tie rod is original ( to 'this' 32 frame I don't know) and is 43 3/8" over all length.

When I tore the entire front end down to rebuild it, I didn't pay any attention to adjustments.

I did change the king pins/bushings, the tie rod end ball studs, springs and nylon ball caps. The replacement springs, ball, caps were all within a few thousands sizes of OEM.

What I modified over stock, I polished (high luster) the king pins, bushings, ball stids and drilled a 1/8" hole in the center of the nylon caps like the OEM steel caps were for a grease passage.

As "Neil in California" suggested. Stepping up to a 4140 grade of cold roll in 11/16" OD cold roll solid rod, I ordered, received and will get it cut and threaded this week end. Assemble next week sometime to check for alignment and fit. If Ok, tear the tie rod back down and get it powder coated.