1959 Fuel & Vacuum Pump

[Stephenorf]

I'm troubleshooting what seems to be a fuel delivery issue on my newly acquired 1959 Mercury Monterey (312ci).

The PO said they had the car running. So far I have not been able to get fuel to the carburetor. The objective is to ensure the fuel pump is in fact pumping fuel.

The fuel pump on the car is "brand new" per the PO, and it looks brand new too. Upon examination, the vacuum/fuel pump indeed seems to be brand new, so I'm somewhat surprised if isn't working.

I put put a fuel hose from the "in" side of the fuel pump into a jerry can full of fresh petrol. From the "out" side, I ran a fuel hose into an empty container. When I crank the engine, only a few drops of fuel barely come out of the hose. So I assume the fuel pump is bad (neither of the hoses are kinked or clogged).

When I removed the fuel pump and cranked on the actuator arm, it moves with practically no resistance, and doesn't seem to make vacuum or suction on either the fuel side or the vacuum side.

I'm not familiar with the vacuum/fuel pumps on these older cars. I'm thinking the "plunger" connected to the fuel pump diaphragm may have gotten disconnected from the actuator arm. Is that possible? Should I expect to feel resistance when I manually move the actuator arm? Other fuel pumps I've messed with, its fairly difficult to move the actuator arm.

 

[KULTULZ]

I'm troubleshooting what seems to be a fuel delivery issue on my newly acquired 1959 Mercury Monterey (312ci).

The PO said they had the car running. So far I have not been able to get fuel to the carburetor. The objective is to ensure the fuel pump is in fact pumping fuel.

The fuel pump on the car is "brand new" per the PO, and it looks brand new too.

After seeing that MC INSTALL, I wouldn't put much trust in what the PO said.

Here is a description of how a mechanical pump works -

http://secondchancegarage.com/public/535.cfm

There is a re-builder here that someone may have reference to.

 

[dmsfrr]

Within the last year or so most of the 'new' off-shore manufactured fuel pumps have been defective in the box. An older used fuel pump may work better. Having an old original pump rebuilt is a good option or going with a 4 psi electric.
If you find a quality new mechanical fuel pump the price will be well more than you expect, possibly due to the very limited availability.
.

 

[Stephenorf]

Here's the fuel pump that was on the car. Like i said, looks brand new. I opened it up and all the gaskets and diaphragms look good too. Basically the internals look like new too.

The problem seems to be with the actuator arm with relation to the diaphragm on the fuel pump side of the pump. With the vacuum diaphragm connecting rod connected to the actuator, the travel of the actuator arm is limited in that at the fully "down" position, it doesn't move the fuel pump diaphragm.

If I disconnect the vacuum diaphragm connecting rod from the actuator arm, and just leave the fuel pump side hooked up, then the very last eighth inch of travel to the full down position of the actuator arm causes the fuel pump diaphragm to move, and you can hear the vacuum sound coming from the "in" line.

I kind of expect the fuel diaphragm to engage prior to the very limit of the downward movement of the actuator arm. But I'm not sure if this pump, being a dual action pump, works a little differently that the ones I am familiar with (single action pumps).

Anyone have any experience related to when the fuel pump diaphragm of a dual action fuel pump should begin to engage with relation to the movement of the actuator?

 

[Stephenorf]

After seeing that MC INSTALL, I wouldn't put much trust in what the PO said.

Here is a description of how a mechanical pump works -

http://secondchancegarage.com/public/535.cfm

There is a re-builder here that someone may have reference to.

Thank you. That's a good write up on the mechanical operation of the Singe and Dual Action Fuel Pumps.

I agree that the brakes look wonky. That brake set-up was on the car prior to the PO getting the car though. The PO had the car for a number of years, but it mostly just sat in a warehouse up on blocks from what I have discovered.

I did find a receipt showing the purchase of a single action fuel pump dated February 2003. It is from Kanter. Thing is, the fuel pump on the car is definitely dual action, so I'm not sure where the single action pump ended up. (Invoice has "Monterey 4DR HT PS PB V8, 312 No AC S/EXH AUTO, SINGLE ACTION F/P", so I know the pump was bought for this car...I guess...not that any of that really matters...just interesting I guess...LOL.

 

[Stephenorf]

Within the last year or so most of the 'new' off-shore manufactured fuel pumps have been defective in the box. An older used fuel pump may work better. Having an old original pump rebuilt is a good option or going with a 4 psi electric.
If you find a quality new mechanical fuel pump the price will be well more than you expect, possibility due to the very limited availability.
.

Yeah, this one seems to be aftermarket, vs rebuild. I cannot find the name of the manufacturer on the pump anywhere. I was hoping for a good brand like Carter or Holley, but all this pump has are some numbers ink stamped on the side..."3066BD" and "19365". I ran them through google with no hits. (Carter offers a "M73066", but it is for 1955-1957 Mercury Monterey. I suspect that is what the pump I have is, but not manufactured by Carter. Not sure.)

 

[paul2748]

If the pump says made in USA, Mexico or Canada the pump is rebuildable. . If it's new pump, it's possible that it is one of those chinese pumps that are junk. Don Hyde, in Texas, supposedly knows what the problems are with the Airtex chinese junk and has a fix for them. I heard that he sells new Airtex pumps after fixing them


There are three or four rebuilders of the USA/Mexico/Canada pumps that I am aware of. One I have used was Arthur Gould Rebuilders in Massachusetts. They did two for me, one is on the car and works good. The other is a spare.



The pump you have, if listed for a 55-57, should be the right one as the same pump was used on all Yblocks with a possible exception for the high performance 57's.

 

[fordor41]

I've heard the a ford 390 fuel pump is same as 292-312 Y blocks.

 

[Alaska Jim]

The FE series fuel pumps do work on the y-blocks. 352, 406, 390,428 pumps will work. I have used them on the y-block in my avatar . The ones I have tried are single action pumps.

 

[KULTULZ]

Yeah, this one seems to be aftermarket, vs rebuild. I cannot find the name of the manufacturer on the pump anywhere. I was hoping for a good brand like Carter or Holley, but all this pump has are some numbers ink stamped on the side..."3066BD" and "19365". I ran them through google with no hits. (Carter offers a "M73066", but it is for 1955-1957 Mercury Monterey. I suspect that is what the pump I have is, but not manufactured by Carter. Not sure.)

The pump is CHI-COM. See the ball(s) that hold the arm pin in?

There was a similar discussion here a while ago concerning this style pump.

FORD used three vendors for pumps during this period - AC-DELCO - CARTER - HOLLEY.

The correct SERVICE REPLACEMENT (FOMOCO) is B9AE 9350-C (S/A). See ATTACHED Below -

Even if you buy a later FE pump (new), it will most likely be junk. IMO, you need to find an original good core and have it professionally gone through.

 

[55blacktie]

Yep. However, if the flow rate exceeds what your engine requires, you might need to install a regulator.

The Carter FE pump I have is rated 7 psi, but I don't recall gallons:hour. The Holley carb is rated for 5.5-7 psi. Just to be on the safe side, I bought a Summit regulator, which is made by Holley.

 

[55blacktie]

Go to Summit and search "mechanical pumps" for FE engines. You'll find a larger selection and more reviews than you'll find for Y-block pumps. The most recent reviews will give you some idea what to expect quality-wise.

My pump is a Carter M6905. The top of the box says "Made in USA." By the way, "Carter" is owned by Federal Mogul.

 

[Daves55Sedan]

Several things can go wrong with the chicom made pumps. There are two check valves, both in the main body. One is the inlet fuel check that holds the fuel in the diaphragm chamber ready to be pumped up. The second one is actually a pressure relief that allows fuel to fall back in the supply side when engine is idling and not using that much fuel. It throttles constantly by amount of pressure in the chamber. These valves are NOTORIOUS for failing and they don't last long. They may be accidentally installing the actuator shaft5 for the 215/223 I-block 6-cyl pumps which they also reproduce. The 6-cyl shaft is a little shorter and doesn't permit that much travel if installed in the 8-cylinder pump.
The Chicom pumps are supplied at chain auto parts stores, online parts stores like Rock Auto and the major repro parts suppliers.
I suggest trying NAPA and ask if you can order a Carter M6905 through them if you can't find an old pump to rebuild.
The repro parts suppliers don't offer rebuild kits for the Y-block/FE pumps, but they do offer them for flathead pumps.

 

[KULTULZ]

THE CARTER 6905 is a HI-VOLUME/HI PRESSURE PUMP not intended for a late 312 2V. It is intended for a HI-PO street car.

The pump itself goes for a hundred dollars and then you need in addition a pressure regulator and inline filter.

It's overkill and money not well spent for a simple driver (IMO).

Pressure and delivery requirements for a 57 FORD 292/312 is a MAX of 3.5-5.5 PSI with a minimum delivery rate of 1 PT in 30 seconds. Now they (1957) have a higher rating as they produce more power. That's all you need or the carb will run rich and/or flood.

Carter Street Super Mechanical Fuel Pumps -

Carter Street Super mechanical fuel pumps flow 120 GPH from 5.5 to 7.5 PSI. They contain heavy-duty diaphragms, high-speed "anti-float" springs, large "full flow" valves, and lightweight all-aluminum castings. As with all Carter fuel pumps, they contain a tough, heat-treated lever.

EDIT -

Source of kits and rebuild service (make sure kit is ethanol rated) -

https://www.then-now-auto.com/fuel-pump-repair-kits/#fp-rebuild-allkits

Possible Good Core - https://www.ebay.com/itm/164472789891

There is also a NOS B9AE 9350-C on EvilBay.

 

[paul2748]

I have an FE pump on my 54 (312 engine). I think it's Carter, made in China (I was hoping made in USA). It has the filter on the bottom. So far, so good although I don't have a lot of miles on it.

The FE series fuel pumps do work on the y-blocks. 352, 406, 390,428 pumps will work. I have used them on the y-block in my avatar . The ones I have tried are single action pumps.

 

[40cpe]

Since the new pump seems to operate with a little more stroke, is it possible that the "lobe" that actuates the pump is defective?

 

[KULTULZ]

Since the new pump seems to operate with a little more stroke, is it possible that the "lobe" that actuates the pump is defective?

Eccentric, yes.

But the spring is so strong that he should not be able to move the arm manually.

 

[Stephenorf]

Since the new pump seems to operate with a little more stroke, is it possible that the "lobe" that actuates the pump is defective?

I was thinking the same thing, although I don't think the pump is working right . I have to press the actuator arm almost all the way down before the diaphram even moves. I'll install the old pump and see if I fxed it enough to ge the fuel to the carb. I also bought a new pump, I'm just waiting for it to arrive in the mail. First think I'll do is operate the accuator arm on the new ump manually to see if there is a lot of resistance, as I expect there should be.

Hopefully the accentric is not defective. I don't want to tear into the motor before I even get it to run for the first time since I bought hte car!

 

[40cpe]

I don't want to tear into the motor before I even get it to run for the first time since I bought hte car!

Electric pump.

 

[55blacktie]

The Carter P4070 is a popular electric pump/w good reviews, but I don't know where it's made. Some use it as an auxiliary pump; they prime the carb, start the engine, and then switch it off, letting the mechanical pump do the rest.