BoxCar Tom
Well-known member
Will Lincoln Zephyr gears fit in a 32 trans case? I’d like to keep use case as it is a matching #s car. Thanks for the help. Tom
LZ gears in a 32 trans?
- Thread starter BoxCar Tom
- Start date
Hoop
Well-known member
The gears will fit into the '32 case, BUT you will not be able to use the stock '32 shifter top.
You will have to use a later top (1939+) or perhaps modify the original '32 (which I have not done ... for several reasons.)
The stock '32 top also provides mounting for the e-brake assembly. This can be overcome when using the later top, but requires some fabrication.
Which LZ gear ratios are you planning to use? And, what performance improvements are you looking for?
In the photo, a '32 shifter is at the far left.
You will have to use a later top (1939+) or perhaps modify the original '32 (which I have not done ... for several reasons.)
The stock '32 top also provides mounting for the e-brake assembly. This can be overcome when using the later top, but requires some fabrication.
Which LZ gear ratios are you planning to use? And, what performance improvements are you looking for?
In the photo, a '32 shifter is at the far left.
Last edited:
BoxCar Tom
Well-known member
Hoop,
Thanks for the reply. I have a stock 32 with stock trans and 411 rear. I'm hoping to get more drivability and fewer shifts. I'm planning to change the rear axel ratio probably to a 37* and maybe change to LZ gears. From your response it seams that I can install the LZ gears in the 32 trans and if I want to keep stock appearance I would have to change to later shift forks. Is it worth it? Am I gearing it down to the point I'll have trouble getting moving? Should I just change the rear and leave the trans alone? Thanks
Thanks for the reply. I have a stock 32 with stock trans and 411 rear. I'm hoping to get more drivability and fewer shifts. I'm planning to change the rear axel ratio probably to a 37* and maybe change to LZ gears. From your response it seams that I can install the LZ gears in the 32 trans and if I want to keep stock appearance I would have to change to later shift forks. Is it worth it? Am I gearing it down to the point I'll have trouble getting moving? Should I just change the rear and leave the trans alone? Thanks
Barn Junk
Well-known member
Starting upwards on a hill from a start is more difficult with Lincoln gears and 3.78 rear. Having to down shift up a hill at speed requires less RPM drop with the Lincoln gears which is usually desirable. That said, with 4.11 maybe you don't have to downshift but give up a nice cruise speed and economy. Pros and cons and that is why the over-drives are so nice.
Hoop
Well-known member
You're welcome, but I AM talking generalities since I have to make a few assumptions.
"More drivability" considering your current stock setup suggests you might want to drive faster on the highway at lower engine rpms. If so, LZ gears will not help since they are 1:1 in 3rd gear just like the rest of the early V8 transmissions. Only 1st and 2nd are different.
The new LZ gears will allow you to "wind out" 1st gear somewhat more. Second gear gets a little "taller" allowing slightly high speed for the rpms .... but no transmission gear change will help you reduce the number of shifts. At least, if I'm on the right track with you.
The biggest improvement would be to change the rear end gears. The 3.78 will keep the engine from twirling as much at highway speeds, and the 3.54 would give you a lot of top end help.
Overall I'm still guessing at you actual needs, but think focusing on the rear end will be more beneficial for you than tinkering with the transmission ... especially if you have a smooth operating '32. More modern gears, commonly called the 1939 style, have an improved synchro design. If you are not having synchro problems, you might consider just leaving the transmission alone.
Also, another option is an overdrive. Probably the most expensive option, but would work well with your present rear end and transmission.
Again, I am guessing about what you really need/want, but would discourage you from jumping to LZ gears without doing quite a bit more research on what else is available. I also have no direct experience with "32s except for the transmissions. Hopefully someone else with the exact knowledge of rear gear fit and/or overdrive installation on '32s will add their views.
"More drivability" considering your current stock setup suggests you might want to drive faster on the highway at lower engine rpms. If so, LZ gears will not help since they are 1:1 in 3rd gear just like the rest of the early V8 transmissions. Only 1st and 2nd are different.
The new LZ gears will allow you to "wind out" 1st gear somewhat more. Second gear gets a little "taller" allowing slightly high speed for the rpms .... but no transmission gear change will help you reduce the number of shifts. At least, if I'm on the right track with you.
The biggest improvement would be to change the rear end gears. The 3.78 will keep the engine from twirling as much at highway speeds, and the 3.54 would give you a lot of top end help.
Overall I'm still guessing at you actual needs, but think focusing on the rear end will be more beneficial for you than tinkering with the transmission ... especially if you have a smooth operating '32. More modern gears, commonly called the 1939 style, have an improved synchro design. If you are not having synchro problems, you might consider just leaving the transmission alone.
Also, another option is an overdrive. Probably the most expensive option, but would work well with your present rear end and transmission.
Again, I am guessing about what you really need/want, but would discourage you from jumping to LZ gears without doing quite a bit more research on what else is available. I also have no direct experience with "32s except for the transmissions. Hopefully someone else with the exact knowledge of rear gear fit and/or overdrive installation on '32s will add their views.
Charlie ny
BANNED
BC Tom,
2 of my close friends have totally stock '32's a 4 door and a
roadster. Both have fresh 21 stud '32 motors and stock transmissions....
straight cut 1st and rev. Both guys switched to 3:54 rears and are
quite happy with the improved roadability. The big trade off is jack
rabbit starts are a bit in the past but on the plus side is a longer 2nd
gear by virtue of the taller rear end which is good for getting up hills
without spinning the fan thru the radiator as was the case with 4:11's
in 2nd gear. Open road driving is of course bliss.
Charlie ny
2 of my close friends have totally stock '32's a 4 door and a
roadster. Both have fresh 21 stud '32 motors and stock transmissions....
straight cut 1st and rev. Both guys switched to 3:54 rears and are
quite happy with the improved roadability. The big trade off is jack
rabbit starts are a bit in the past but on the plus side is a longer 2nd
gear by virtue of the taller rear end which is good for getting up hills
without spinning the fan thru the radiator as was the case with 4:11's
in 2nd gear. Open road driving is of course bliss.
Charlie ny
Hoop
Well-known member
In many cases, LZ gears have a reputation that may not be fully deserved.
It really comes down to the numbers.
The "standard" early V8 transmission has a 16 tooth Main Drive Gear for input from the engine. The large gear on the cluster which is always in mesh with the MDG has 28 teeth. (Later in production a 15/29 combination became available but is geared lower and away from the LZ'z.)
Two LZ gear sets were used. The common 18/26 combination and the less found 19/25.
For comparison here are the transmission ratios in 1st and 2nd gears:
1st gear 16/28 Standard 2.82
1st gear 18/26 LZ 2.33
!st gear 19/25 LZ 2.12
2nd gear 16/28 Standard 1.60
2nd gear 18/26 LZ 1.58
2nd gear 19/25 LZ 1.43
So, you really have to be careful that you are getting what you're looking for. Reputation may be guiding you rather than the actual numbers, especially in 2nd gear using the 18/26 gear set.
It really comes down to the numbers.
The "standard" early V8 transmission has a 16 tooth Main Drive Gear for input from the engine. The large gear on the cluster which is always in mesh with the MDG has 28 teeth. (Later in production a 15/29 combination became available but is geared lower and away from the LZ'z.)
Two LZ gear sets were used. The common 18/26 combination and the less found 19/25.
For comparison here are the transmission ratios in 1st and 2nd gears:
1st gear 16/28 Standard 2.82
1st gear 18/26 LZ 2.33
!st gear 19/25 LZ 2.12
2nd gear 16/28 Standard 1.60
2nd gear 18/26 LZ 1.58
2nd gear 19/25 LZ 1.43
So, you really have to be careful that you are getting what you're looking for. Reputation may be guiding you rather than the actual numbers, especially in 2nd gear using the 18/26 gear set.
Hoop
Well-known member
Manuel, back when I took the picture, I was trying to show someone the difference between early '30s, later '30s, and the "39" shifter tops. If I remember correctly, the discussion was about installing the "39" larger 3" fork (91A-) into earlier shift tops.
So, as with the very first lesson I received in identifying "39" transmissions, one shifter has a wider 2nd/3rd fork (the upper one in each of the pictured tops.)
BY sticking a slip of paper up to your computer screen and marking it, you can compare the relative size difference between the center shifter and the one on the right. You can quickly figure which one is the "39" and which is the pre-39.
(For those who rely on the number of detents without looking inside, I have found 91A- forks in pre-39 tops AND earlier 68- forks installed in double detent tops.)
So, in Tom's situation with the '32 shifter, the 91A- fork is not a simple exchange.
So, as with the very first lesson I received in identifying "39" transmissions, one shifter has a wider 2nd/3rd fork (the upper one in each of the pictured tops.)
BY sticking a slip of paper up to your computer screen and marking it, you can compare the relative size difference between the center shifter and the one on the right. You can quickly figure which one is the "39" and which is the pre-39.
(For those who rely on the number of detents without looking inside, I have found 91A- forks in pre-39 tops AND earlier 68- forks installed in double detent tops.)
So, in Tom's situation with the '32 shifter, the 91A- fork is not a simple exchange.
Bruce Lancaster
Member Emeritus
Remember how the Zephyr gears were used by the factory...they went into cars with 4.44 gears, nicely curing the low end torque problem, and an overdrive curing the cruising RPM problem. A grand unification solution to the gearing, not just new trans ratios.
I would recommend for most purposes 3.78 or 3.54 with 28 tooth Ford gears as a happy combination, and get fancier with everything if I could afford a mitchell overdrive.
I have never done anything myself with '32 cases, but I have been told that they often have minor clearance problems requiring some light grinding below the front teeth on the cluster. This problem also requires fully assembling the cluster into case first, then assembling rear upper shaft, and installin and assembling the input gear and its bearing last. No big deal, just putting the jigsaw puzzle together in a new order...
I would recommend for most purposes 3.78 or 3.54 with 28 tooth Ford gears as a happy combination, and get fancier with everything if I could afford a mitchell overdrive.
I have never done anything myself with '32 cases, but I have been told that they often have minor clearance problems requiring some light grinding below the front teeth on the cluster. This problem also requires fully assembling the cluster into case first, then assembling rear upper shaft, and installin and assembling the input gear and its bearing last. No big deal, just putting the jigsaw puzzle together in a new order...
Might also mention here.... I believe that this presents a DIS- assembly problem. Might want to give it some thought, before you 'hammer' it together. There's been much previous discussion on this, including ideas on how to disassemble. Both on the 'Barn, and many other places, including the V8 Times.
I'm not saying 'don't-do-it', only suggesting to think about how to get it apart........
Barn Junk
Well-known member
Bruce, The main problem is when installing and removing, especially a 15/29 gear set in the early cases. The main drive, engaging ring interferes with the larger 29 tooth cluster gear, even with the cluster pin removed, unless you install the front bearing last. Or when disassembling, you have to remove the bearing first. If the front bearing is a tight fit on the main drive, it can be a little difficult.
blucar
Well-known member
BoxCar Tom
Well-known member
Many thanks for all the thoughtful and informative replies. As a result I decided against the LZ gears. Instead I'll concentrate on finding a late (32/33/34) 3.78 or 3.54 r&p set. Thanks again, Tom
Bruce Lancaster
Member Emeritus
I don't think the 3.78 exists for that 18 rear, but can be adapted with considerable machining from later gears. 3.54 is available in repro from Joblot, and I think originals would be very rare...I believe almost all were built as 4.11.
3.54 and 28's would be my choice, assuming insufficient wealth for overdrive and 4.11's.
3.54 and 28's would be my choice, assuming insufficient wealth for overdrive and 4.11's.
