Ideas for vibration problem in 59A

There is no question in my mind it is the engine. I just went thru this about 6 months ago on an engine that I had invested a LOT of money in. Virtually all the machine work had to be redone. When finished, the NEW machinist (John Beck, Pro Machine in Chico), who did all the RE machining, called and asked if the engine had run smoothly before. I said NO, that it did not. He said the crank was out of balance 110 grams.
That's a lot of weight.
Sorry, Henry, I don't see an easy or inexpensive fix
Jim
 
If the pressure plate was not put on the flywheel in the same position as
it was before the rebuild , then the balance will be off.
This assumes that you did not have a this problem before the re-build
 
Kahuna said:
There is no question in my mind it is the engine. I just went thru this about 6 months ago on an engine that I had invested a LOT of money in. Virtually all the machine work had to be redone. When finished, the NEW machinist (John Beck, Pro Machine in Chico), who did all the RE machining, called and asked if the engine had run smoothly before. I said NO, that it did not. He said the crank was out of balance 110 grams.
That's a lot of weight.
Sorry, Henry, I don't see an easy or inexpensive fix
Jim
Click to expand...

The pain of the expense isn't near as bad as the pain of it not running right.

Why did all of your machining have to be redone rather than just balancing the crank?
 
BrianCT said:
If the pressure plate was not put on the flywheel in the same position as
it was before the rebuild , then the balance will be off.
This assumes that you did not have a this problem before the re-build
Click to expand...

Pressure plate and clutch were all replaced with new from Fort Wayne Clutch. It, along with the trueness of the crank just put in (it with the flywheel had less than 1/1000th run out whereas the previous crank was 2/1000ths) totally solved my clutch chatter problem I've suffered with for a year and a half. That was sure nice. I sure hope any redoing of the engine doesn't undo that nicety.
 
Old Henry said:
The pain of the expense isn't near as bad as the pain of it not running right.

Why did all of your machining have to be redone rather than just balancing the crank?
Click to expand...

Attempted to explain this in an earlier post, you really can't just balance the crank, it doesn't work that way. As for additional machining, not sure I understand that, but the entire rotating assembly has to be taken into account. It could be a piston or rod way out of weight, or the flywheel or the pressure plate off balance. You also have to have the weight of all the rotating components in order to establish the bob weights for the crank. It is not "just balancing the crank".
 
They sell a large number of clutch and pressure plates with no problem.
With 20,000 miles your clutch looks to be slipped to much.
This next time ford guys say you can put a 8ba crankshaft and rods and with new bearing should be good for another 50,000 miles.
 
Old Henry said:
Other than the standard gaskets, the only working parts replaced were new bearings and the original crankshaft machined 10 under and installed. No change of pistons nor rods.
Click to expand...
Henry, Looking back at your thread when this latest debacle started I could not help but notice the photo of the rod you had posted. With the damage to the bearings, etc. in that engine those rods (ALL OF THEM) should have been checked carefully to be certain they were not only straight but round. In other words they should have been reconditioned.
In fact, I can't understand why your latest "rebuilder" did not insist on going through the entire engine properly. No way would I have touched this project, knowing the history, without permission to check ALL the so called "rebuilding" done in the past.
You state that you'd only recently found out this guy had no previous experience with flatheads. Okay, so he had no previous experience. ANY half way decent machinist with or without flathead experience should be able to put one of these together properly. The "rules" of machining are constant regardless of whether it's a flathead or an OHV. Assembling a flathead is also on par with assembling any other type of engine.
 
I think its internal engine vibration, its gona have to be pulled again and fixed. Clutch aint the problem in my opinion. I work on a massive aray of classic cars, have replaced lots of clutch's in my time. Not one of the replacement's required it to be balanced with the flywheel. When you fit a replacment clutch and the flywheel is in good order, you simply bolt the clutch on the flywheel, and away you go. The clutch assembly should be in balance out of the box, and if it is, it dont matter if you clock it at each of the three possible angles (long style clutch, used for instance) it should not/wont effect the balance of the engine.
Your vibration sounds to me to be as I said, internal. Crank,rods.pistons need to be ballanced.
I highly recomend you take up one of the earlyer offers from highly skilled Flathead mechanics, for a rebuild.
Get it done properly, you would have been clicking away miles on your odometer, with a silky smooth engine, instead of the pain of having to do it again.
Sorry if it sounds like a telling off at the end. But thats the truth.
Good luck.
Martin.
Just read the above post, I agree any decent engine builder should be able to do the work, Balancing and machining, rod rebuilding, maybe not the setting of the floating bearings if not done before. Though he could do a bit of research and then do it. But all the rest, no problem.
 
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That kind of periodic vibration is usually due to a flywheel imbalance. The runout of the flywheel on the crank should be checked, and the dowels inspected to be sure they actually fit the flywheel, and that the special bolts (1196) have been used and torqued to spec. Each flywheel we resurface is checked for balance, a slight amount of removed material can make a big difference. Most rotational imbalance shows up at a specific and narrow rpm band.
 
The flywheel didnt vibrate before so we can say it is in balance. I hope.
The runout was also checked and found good before,
You could be on to something with the runout being checked on the crank now fitted, could be the crank flange issue, possibly.
I think a flywheel should be balanced seperate from the clutch cover, this way the clutch can be placed anywhere on the flywheel with no need for indexing, if that makes sence. Thats what I do with rebuilds, and as I said earlyer the clutch dont need indexing, and a replacement clutch can just be bolted on without upseting balance.
Still think it needs tugging and going through.
I know you said no snide remarks about your mechanic, the issue I have is "I thought the vibration is normal"
If I rebuilt a type of engine I havent built before, I do my home work. And if it then vibrated like yours, its pull it apart time (on my coin) and see what I did wrong. Not had to yet, I do my home work.
Martin.
Little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
 
scooder said:
The flywheel didnt vibrate before so we can say it is in balance. I hope.
The runout was also checked and found good before,
You could be on to something with the runout being checked on the crank now fitted, could be the crank flange issue, possibly.
I think a flywheel should be balanced seperate from the clutch cover, this way the clutch can be placed anywhere on the flywheel with no need for indexing, if that makes sence. Thats what I do with rebuilds, and as I said earlyer the clutch dont need indexing, and a replacement clutch can just be bolted on without upseting balance.
Still think it needs tugging and going through.
I know you said no snide remarks about your mechanic, the issue I have is "I thought the vibration is normal"
If I rebuilt a type of engine I havent built before, I do my home work. And if it then vibrated like yours, its pull it apart time (on my coin) and see what I did wrong. Not had to yet, I do my home work.
Martin.
Little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Click to expand...
Scooder, I can't find a way to state this better than you have done.
You are obviously a better mechanic than I as I have in fact have had times when I have made mistakes. Like you, it's my dime to fix it. Guys do not pay me to practice on their vehicles. They pay me to do the job correctly. I was one of those that offered henry my service. I take a lot of poopy on this forum as I tend to build trailer queens. Many of these guys dishing the poopy fail to recognize that all the Queens I build are VERY road worthy as well as beautiful.
ANYONE that has ever rebuilt an engine knows even a small amount of vibration will cause a "premature death". If that vibration is bad enough that it can be felt in the passenger compartment and he thought that was normal... he should put down the tools and back away from the bench.
Olhenry had Mo "rebuild" the first engine - twice was it? Now he had Larry do it for the third time. Seems only one viable option remains - Curly.
 
I doubt I'm a better mechanic, I do make mistakes, but I'm methodical and check lots of times when I'm in the process. This can lead to redoing something, to correct the mistake. So far this slower process has kept me away from having to pull an engine back out. And maybe lucky.
I also do as you, don't charge folk for my learning curve.
Martin.
 
Hi all!
I have the same Old Henry problem, an small vibration live in my engine since two years ago. AM SURE IT IS THE FLYWHEEL BALANCE, when I disassembled my engine I change the original clutch for other no-original one.
I asked the mechanics to balance the clutch/flywheel, "SAYS, It is not necessary because in Old car it is not important"
After assembled the engine, literately i could prepare a "milk shake for my Kids" and a Martini for me!

Well, nowadays that vibration calmed down a little, but on the road I can not pass more than 80Km/h. Once I posted this item and checked wheels, carb, dist, suspensions etc.

I fell that I must take care my engine not running in high speed..perhaps I am in a mistake.:(
I post pics what I installed.

Thank

Hary
 

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Hey Old Henry, I got the same issues, I've come to the conclusion on mine it's the flywheel / pressure plate not balanced together. That will be rectified in about two weeks. Your mechanic probably changed the indexing the flywheel and or the pressure plate when reassembling. If your crank was balanced with the FW previously and they changed the index that's probably it, although if the pressure plate and flywheel were balanced together It could be that they changed the indexing on the PP to FW. In either case it's a PIA and a major dis-assembly fix. I'm commiserating as I'll be there shortly.
Good luck!
 
I don't 'get' it. Don't you guys run your engines before you install them? Scooder? Supereal? Kube? If you guys are as thorough as you suggest, I can't imagine you installing an engine you haven't run, even if it is on the floor. But, better yet, on a stand. What gives here? Old Henry's mechanic, if he is any good at all, should already know if that engine vibrates, or not. Even me, old, tired, re-tired, and what you probably all think of as an amateur, runs engines on a home-made stand, and even on the floor if necessary. One thing for sure, I'm going to know about main-seal leaks, and vibration, before I install. Too GD much work to pull them back out if something obvious is wrong.
About a few months ago, I sold an engine. There was no way that engine was going to leave my shop before the buyer had heard it run. It was on a simple stand, and I made sure the buyer heard no knocks, even running, no vibration, no smoke clouds, etc, etc. It probalby took about 20-30 minutes extra in making the sale, but worth it to me (& hopefully the buyer, too).
Even Ol'Ron posted on here one time in the past, about running engines - I think he might have said on an old tire carcass, if necessary.
Just my opinion - just a simple thing I've learned to do.
 
Kahuna said:
There is no question in my mind it is the engine. I just went thru this about 6 months ago on an engine that I had invested a LOT of money in. Virtually all the machine work had to be redone. When finished, the NEW machinist (John Beck, Pro Machine in Chico), who did all the RE machining, called and asked if the engine had run smoothly before. I said NO, that it did not. He said the crank was out of balance 110 grams.
That's a lot of weight.
Sorry, Henry, I don't see an easy or inexpensive fix
Jim
Click to expand...


Was this a scat crank??

R
 
No, Ronnie.
This is a 4" merc offset ground for a 4 1/8" stroke. Was supposedly balanced, etc., by a shop that said they had built many flatheads and knew how to do the machine work.
What he didn't tell me was that the flathead guy had left some years before.
Here's what was done wrong:
Bore too tight by .001
Crank (rod journals) had taper and one egg-shaped. Had to be reground to .030 under.
Rod bearings set too loose (full floating). Rods had to be resized
Block had several cracks (was magnafluxed by same shop)
Poor balance job
There was more, but you get the jist of it
 
Kahuna said:
No, Ronnie.
This is a 4" merc offset ground for a 4 1/8" stroke. Was supposedly balanced, etc., by a shop that said they had built many flatheads and knew how to do the machine work.
What he didn't tell me was that the flathead guy had left some years before.
Here's what was done wrong:
Bore too tight by .001
Crank (rod journals) had taper and one egg-shaped. Had to be reground to .030 under.
Rod bearings set too loose (full floating). Rods had to be resized
Block had several cracks (was magnafluxed by same shop)
Poor balance job
There was more, but you get the jist of it
Click to expand...

Wow not a good experience at all.

R
 
Good news! My mechanic garage seems to have turned into "Golden Rulers" meaning that they have decided to take full responsibility to get the engine running right no matter what it takes on their dime instead of mine. I imagine it's a hard pill to swallow but, if they thought about the tables being turned, I'm sure they would want the same as I expected.

Unfortunately, from their "research" and "talking to people" they have concluded that the vibration is coming totally from the Fort Wayne clutch I bought and gave them to put on. So, their plan is to remove the engine, put a different clutch on, and put the engine back in to see if that fixed it. I, of course, wondered why they just didn't check everything while they had the engine out - crank balance, flywheel and clutch balance, piston and rods balance. They are just so sure that it is just the clutch. "So, what if that one change doesn't get rid of the vibration? Then what?" I ask. "Well, we'll just have to take the engine out again and try something else." Oh boy. :confused: Oh well, as long as it's on their dime I guess if they want to take it out, change the paint color, and put it back in to see if that fixes it, fine by me. At least they are taking full responsibility to get it right and satisfy me as their new customer. That's a relief and take a load off me.
 
Old Henry it is a simple matter to have the clutch pressure plate and disk and flywheel balance checked most clutch shops have a good balancer
have your mechanic check the balance of the clutch assembley if it is found to in balance he will need to look further in inside the engine
just changing the clutch and hoping that is the problem is bad practise when it is so easy to test
 
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