'36 Brakes Still Don't Work...

[Enbloc]

Following on from my previous post...

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9758

As per the suggestions.
I've replace the drums for better ones, had them skimmed and the shoes arc'd with new woven linings.
I've fitted new springs and tried the brakes both with and without Ted's floaters.
I've took the slack out and adjusted them.

The brakes are "Ok", not great and the chattering still continues sometimes worse than before.

I've been on this weeks, have changed every component in some cases twice and invested alot of time and money and now I'm at a complete loss with where to turn next.

I'm rapidly losing patience with the brakes as its makes the car almost undriveable and is certainly taking the fun out of using it.

A hydraulic conversion is coming ever closer and not a route I wanted to take especially not at this stage.

 

[SUHRsc]

By chance do the actuators on the front have any slop in them? (the parts that go from the kingpin to the perchpin)

I'm guessing you've tried others here too...

Also.. the actuating pin that goes through the kingpin.. is this cupped correctly and of the correct diameter (original) to not allow slop when the brakes are applied?

Just shots in the dark really....

good luck!

 

[Jason in TX]

Are your brake levers on the spring perches that the rods attach to fully forward and the moment you pull back, the brake wedge starts to work, or is there some slack there? (oh.. I just read that you took the slack out)

I would make sure that the rod that goes from the actuator down to the wedge is the correct length. Make your own new ones if its not. Or you can use the pills, but I just put longer ones in my coupe and it helped immensely.

I also welded up the grooves worn in the brake wedge and then filed them back smooth again so that you get full even movement.

 

[George/Maine]

Following on from my previous post...

http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9758

As per the suggestions.
I've replace the drums for better ones, had them skimmed and the shoes arc'd with new woven linings.
I've fitted new springs and tried the brakes both with and without Ted's floaters.
I've took the slack out and adjusted them.

The brakes are "Ok", not great and the chattering still continues sometimes worse than before.

I've been on this weeks, have changed every component in some cases twice and invested alot of time and money and now I'm at a complete loss with where to turn next.

I'm rapidly losing patience with the brakes as its makes the car almost undriveable and is certainly taking the fun out of using it.

A hydraulic conversion is coming ever closer and not a route I wanted to take especially not at this stage.

For whats its worth.
There was a term used years ago called camferring the shoes.Thats when you grind back the lining 3/4", depth of 1/8" on and angle,the width of the linning,on ends of ALL the linings.
What it does is makes the drums go on better,lets the shoes rock better,and should make for no chatter.

 

[George/Maine]

 

[Enbloc]

Tried to narrow it down further this afternoon.
First I dis-connected the back brakes and left the fronts. Chatter still present. Dis-connected the fronts and re-connected the rears. Chatter gone, brakes nice and smooth.

So its a problem on the front?

With the back brakes still connected, I connected just the passenger side front brake.
Chatter back.
Disconnected the passenger side brake and re-connected the drivers side brake.
chatter gone again.

So now I think I can pinpoint the problem to most certainly the front brakes and possibly just the passenger side front brake.

I also found movement in both front wheels when rocked in the 12 '0' clock/6 '0' clock postion. Its not excessive, but noticable.
Kingpins and brearings are tight. The movement seems to be in the drum on the spindle. Bearings are new so I'm thinking worn spindles??

By chance do the actuators on the front have any slop in them? (the parts that go from the kingpin to the perchpin)

I'm guessing you've tried others here too...

Also.. the actuating pin that goes through the kingpin.. is this cupped correctly and of the correct diameter (original) to not allow slop when the brakes are applied?

Just shots in the dark really....

good luck!

Actuators are tight. I haven't tried any others. Same for the actuation rods.

Are your brake levers on the spring perches that the rods attach to fully forward and the moment you pull back, the brake wedge starts to work, or is there some slack there? (oh.. I just read that you took the slack out)

I would make sure that the rod that goes from the actuator down to the wedge is the correct length. Make your own new ones if its not. Or you can use the pills, but I just put longer ones in my coupe and it helped immensely.

I also welded up the grooves worn in the brake wedge and then filed them back smooth again so that you get full even movement.

All slope was taken out.

'36 mechanicals are different to the earlier style wedges you show, but the principles are the same.

For whats its worth.
There was a term used years ago called camferring the shoes.Thats when you grind back the lining 3/4", depth of 1/8" on and angle,the width of the linning,on ends of ALL the linings.
What it does is makes the drums go on better,lets the shoes rock better,and should make for no chatter.

All shoes have been chamfered BUT not as much as 3/4". Mine are more like 1/4-3/8".
Thanks for the scan of the workshop manual. I'll give the larger chamfer a go.

 

[FlatheadTed]

Enbloc You are heading in the right direction by trying to isolate the problem .How worn are your drums , particly the left side ,and how much thread is left on the adjuster ,are your shoes lined fully or short at the ends ??. What is the ware pattern like on the shoes so far.??

 

[TerryOH]

check the fit of the front wheel bearings on the spindle to see if the problem lies there. looks like it is in the RF wheel. Are the wheel bearings adjusted correctly? check the lug holes on the rim, oblong? make sure the lug nuts draw the rim up tight, do they thread all the way down to the drum. check the tie rod ends and the drag link, look for bad spring shackles. are the U-bolts that hold the front spring to the crossmember tight.

 

[Enbloc]

Enbloc You are heading in the right direction by trying to isolate the problem .How worn are your drums , particly the left side ,and how much thread is left on the adjuster ,are your shoes lined fully or short at the ends ??. What is the ware pattern like on the shoes so far.??

I suspect my front drums are nearing the end of their life. They still measure 12 inches with a tape.
The stock adjusters seem to be in a little more than I would expect, but what is normal?
I removed the floaters as I found they were running out of adjustment.

I have leading and trailing style shoes. I have had them fitted both with the shorter and longer leading. Same out come from both. Currently fitted with the longer shoe on the towards the front of the car. Shoes show an even contact across the whole shoe on all shoes.

 

[FlatheadTed]

The experiments I have done with shorter trailing and longer leading edg shoes have not been that successful and seem to chatter , 1935 came out with full shoes on ,You could try the two long /full shoes on the left wheel and test drive it ,with the right disconnected ,chatter can be one end of the lining contacting and letting go ,This can be caused by a verity of things like The bearings (that has been mentioned ) a loose backing plate. A loose perch bolt .can cause it also ,On the bottom of the backing plate there is a cam nut that can be turned to more centre the shoes ,but some have a rivet with no adjustment . Measure the shoe from the stub axle for centre ,compare this to the right side .With floaters you can place the short shoe on the rear with the full lining (all the way to the bottom ) facing down .The long shoe with the full lining to the top on the front .This is as a experiment only and not ideal long term. If the drums are the stock 12" then you should have plenty of adjustment left ,But it does sound like there's some ware there ,as you should have 3/8 adjustment thread with no ware ,You can shim the fork on the top at the adjuster link were it contacts the shoes with a rivet I use a concrete nail.,Or You can fit 1/4 " linings then this will give you much more adjustment thread .I do think your linings are likely the issue ,

 

[FlatheadTed]

Also Some adjuster links can have the ends worn of them through repeated adjustments over the years .Then the Fork head contacts the adjuster housing first before the shoe hits the drum, and You can lose any self energising affect .

 

[FlatheadTed]

Here's some shots of, on the left is a shorten lining this is unsutable .in the middle shot 3 push rod links from right a Model A one ,next a 35/36 one, next a 37/38 one ,you can see the end is warn on the 35/36 one you can weld this up or get re-pops. The backing plate shows were you can shim the adjuster .

 

[FlatheadTed]

This one is shows how the link can contact the housing ,

 

[FlatheadTed]

This shot is of the cam, you can see the slot for turning it. Not to over shadow all the other good contributors .

 

[Enbloc]

Chamfered the shoes as suggested. This made no difference.

Chatter with brakes connected. Disconnected the RH front again chatter stops. 99.9% sure its one corner causing the problems.

Had a good look at the push rod links . They seem to sit way too far onto the shoe. They are sitting so far onto the shoe that their bottoming out and even burring the shoe. I'll try and get pictures tomorrow.

I packed out the the push rod as Ted explained above. This improved some shoes but one or two were still sitting to far in.

Gave it another drive and things have improved slightly. It still chatters but not as bad.
I'm going to order new push rods and weld up the ends of the brake shoes as well as they seem to be showing signs of wear.

 

[FlatheadTed]

If you want to stop the link head from contacting the housing as per my photo then yes weld in the angled edge ,or get repoped ones , bare in mind that the shoe needs to slide in the fork vertically so this must be cleaned and lubed in the slot .Standard drums on a 35 are 12" since you have yours turned they will be over size .This does not take much to affect the threads on the adjusters .Its best when doing a brake job is put on 1/4 " linings .This is std practise here ,it you have new 11" for a ,A model, or 12" 32to 38 drums ,then 3/16 linings you will get away with .All this can be overcome by welding the angled end .

 

[BrianCT]

Tried to narrow it down further this afternoon.
First I dis-connected the back brakes and left the fronts. Chatter still present. Dis-connected the fronts and re-connected the rears. Chatter gone, brakes nice and smooth.

So its a problem on the front?

With the back brakes still connected, I connected just the passenger side front brake.
Chatter back.
Disconnected the passenger side brake and re-connected the drivers side brake.
chatter gone again.

So now I think I can pinpoint the problem to most certainly the front brakes and possibly just the passenger side front brake.

I also found movement in both front wheels when rocked in the 12 '0' clock/6 '0' clock postion. Its not excessive, but noticable.
Kingpins and brearings are tight. The movement seems to be in the drum on the spindle. Bearings are new so I'm thinking worn spindles??



Actuators are tight. I haven't tried any others. Same for the actuation rods.



All slope was taken out.

'36 mechanicals are different to the earlier style wedges you show, but the principles are the same.



All shoes have been chamfered BUT not as much as 3/4". Mine are more like 1/4-3/8".
Thanks for the scan of the workshop manual. I'll give the larger chamfer a go.

I had a slight chatter problem on front like you describe. Properly tightening the wheel bearing solved it. You should not have noticeable
wheel movement at gripping at 6 and 12.

 

[George/Maine]

If you have it to the right side,swap your drums and see if it moves.Are your shoes to wide and hitting on side of drum.Some times when turnning them they don,t go far enought and hit the sides.If your bearing are loose you will have up and down movement.There should be NO movement.If the shoes are to wide grind the sides down,or have someone turn the drum farther.

 

[George/Maine]

If you have it to the right side,swap your drums and see if it moves.Are your shoes to wide and hitting on side of drum.Some times when turnning them they don,t go far enought and hit the sides.If your bearing are loose you will have up and down movement.There should be NO movement.If the shoes are to wide grind the sides down,or have someone turn the drum farther.

I have noticed some of the new bearing the radious is small and not right.When you go swapping parts you can make thing worst.If you have the old bearing check it with new.A full radious hits the spindle and control how far the drum go in.Did the brakes work ok before or is this a new car your working on.

 

[Mr 42]

One thing that looks "odd" to me is the lack of grease on the pictures, Don't go overboard with but a dab here and there, will help movement metal to metal and maybe silence the brakes.


This is how my 33 brakes looked/looks Grease wise.