non- detergent oil

I'm rather surprised at the answers give above. The unwanted particles picked up by running the engine is suspended in Detergent oil. This is so that the oil filter can do a better job of filtering them out. Non-detergent lets the particles settle to the low point of the engine. This is one reason Ford wanted you to change oil every 500 miles (besides no filter) and flush it every so often with kerosine. You can still get non-detergent oil Most parts stores sell it for lawnmowers.

P.S. Your A may have 108,000 miles but bet it's engine has been rebuilt a few time. Most Model A engine were concedered high mile with 25,000 back in the day and still are.
 
Any one that still uses non-det oil in there A is still living in the stone age.Do your engine a favor & use detergent oil. unless the engine is full of sludge,the det-oil will slowly clean out the sludge& varnish deposits in the engine.Use 15-40 or 20-50 oil for summer use.Change the oil every 500 miles for the first 3 or 4 changes,then every 1,000 miles after that even if it does,nt have a filter.
 
In 1976 I was working for Galpin Ford in the San Fernando Valley and I posed this age old debate to a really old school Ford mechanic that had started working on Fords in 1936.

His answer made sense then, and I think it does now. "The Model A Ford engine lubrication system is SO marginal that whatever percentage you replaced with detergent is that much less lubrication in a system that wasn't getting the job done in the first place."

That's an eighty year span with me in the middle reaching back to a guy who worked on a LOT of them back when they were on their first trip around the earth.

I run 15-40 in my full pressure Model B, and I'm finishing up my last case of "Western Auto" 40 wt. non-detergent in my bone stock late '31 Coupe.

The same guy showed me how to rivet brake shoe linings on with an old foot pedal operated riveter that Galpin still had around the place. I was 24, newly married, and had a '29 Roadster and a '56 T Bird.
 
Oil is oil for the most part. However, different manufacturers add in different chemicals. Sometimes, these chemicals interact in a bad way when you mix brands.

Simply stick with the same brand and you will be fine.

I read an article years ago in a trade journal(can't remember which one) about engine oils and how to keep your engine running strong. One thing that was mentioned is that the major cause of sludge in your engine is the mixing of oils rather than just not changing them regularly.

I have had the chance to test this on several engines over the years and have not seen anything to the contrary.
 
Which would you prefer opinions or science?

The science says you need to have oils with detergents and additives to protect the metals from the nasty by products of combustion. For example, the sulfuric acid that leaves neat etchings and holes in oil pans.

Back when the A was produced there was just poor and worse oils. They were just learning the chemistry. Coupled with very dirty roads meant you needed to change the oil around 500 miles. The oil was dirty and starting to break down and lose it lubricating ability.

Today we have lots of additives that control the bad chemicals. They know how to make oils that do not break down and lose their lubricative ability unless you overheat them. You are changing oils today mostly because the additives get used up over time.

The ideas that you do not want the particles floating around with detergents cause they will do damage is not really correct. You realize that the smallest particles that pass through filters are also the most damaging. No, you want the detergent to hold the particles in suspension so they can be drained out.

Oh and about that 500 mile oil change. Very wasteful. You will have no problem putting a couple of thousand miles or a couple of years (depending). Again the oil does not magically break down, you are just trying to keep the protective additives at proper levels.

One last thought, Has anyone seen a documented engine that failed because the oil was not changed regularly? I must add that cars where the level went low do not count.


Now there was a comment about the original engines only going 25,000 miles before major rebuilds. The real numbers are 50,000 to 80,000 miles.

About mixed oil brands. I have always mixed oils and I do not have a sludge problem. My lowest mile car has 106,000 miles and my wife drives a car with 260,000 miles. I also try to minimize the amount of work I do to my cars, seems the less things you try to change the longer they run.

But hey, what could I know.

There is a bunch of scientific facts on oils online if you care to search them out. Nothing like a oil engineer to dispel word of mouth with science.
 
28ACoupe said:
Simply stick with the same brand and you will be fine.

I read an article years ago in a trade journal(can't remember which one) about engine oils and how to keep your engine running strong. One thing that was mentioned is that the major cause of sludge in your engine is the mixing of oils rather than just not changing them regularly.
I have had the chance to test this on several engines over the years and have not seen anything to the contrary.
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disagree with this entire statement rubbish
 
P.S. said:
It took about 5 oil changes using modern oil to clean the inside of my Tudor's high-mileage motor that had been using non-detergent oil by previous owner. Now, the insides look clean and nice. Oil stays cleaner longer. Car turned 108,000 miles yesterday, runs like a champ!
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108,000 miles on a Model A engine? Must be a record.
 
We were about due for this one to come up again! (Next, It'll be the transmission oil) I'm new to mod. A s so what I'm saying may not carry much weight. My own opinion is that you can use just about any oil you can lay your hands on, safely! Always remember,"The worst oils of today are better than the best oils of 1930!" !930, !930, hmm I've heard that date before! OH YEAH! That was the beginning of the depression! (Actually it was nov, 1929) The point is no one had the money to do regular oil changes. And there were serious discussions about whether or not you even needed to change the oil. And these engines made it through! Then came WW2 and the Rationing. Was Oil rationed? I think so, but..... either way, These cars made it through! They're probably getting the best treatment of their lives. Should you use Detergent oils? My answer is a resounding yes. That view was reinforced whe I took the oil screen of the oil pump of an engine I'm rebuilding. This screen was partially clogged with sludge. Oil couldn't get through. How the heck do you lube the bearings if oil can't get through? It will be detergent oils for me always in the future.
Terry
 
yea there's a reason dollar general still sells non detergent motor oil for $0.75 a quart...

since we have no oil filters you want the detergents to capture and suspend the contaminents and byproducts of combustion so they can be drained.
 
Engine oil is one of my pet peeves and has been for more years than I can think back. I always read everything on motor oils whenever it is published and process it in my brain. I must have read many hundred pages on it, in magazines as well as in scientific publications. Don't ask.

I own a bunch of old cars and motorcycles, from diesels to 9000rpm rotaries to big twins and high-reving 4-cam engines. Every engine gets the oil I find suited best for its construction and intended use. I went as far and used Motul 10W-60 in one of my race engines, to the tune of $18-something per liter (about a quart), which is scary expensive if you need 10 quarts and change it after about every 60 minutes running time. So money is of no concern to me when it comes to motor oil as an engine rebuilt is always much more expensive than even the most expensive motor oil, a fact that even holds true for the $800+ motor oil changes on an Ferrari Enzo.

Instead of writing a lengthy essay about this here and now, let me tell you that I use in my old Fords: the cheapest 5W-30 in my Model T's and the cheapest ("on sale") 10W-40 in my Model A. I change this stuff frequently though, every few hundred miles at the most.

I too use non-detergent oil: Royal Purple break-in oil for the first few minutes on a freshened-up race engine to allow for proper set in of the rings. Anybody who drives his Model A with single grade non-detergent oil in the 21st century has a serious problem way up there above their eyes. No offense intended.
 
well we had the 'battery on a board, never concrete' thread last week, and 'put brake fluid in the radiator' this week, we were overdue for non-detergent oil, and prolly next week it will be using original 1928-31 air in the tires.

Time and science and engineering and technology march on, leaving some behind in the dust.

I knew a guy who drained his antifreeze (ethylene glycol) in the winter since he believed it would harm the block in the off-season. Ya, ethylene glycol, which is a completely inert substance. He could not be persuaded otherwise.

I warned my nephew when he started at McPherson college's 4 yr antique car restoration program 5 yrs ago about the 'battery on the board not concrete' deal so he wouldn't go into a seizure of laughter when he first came across someone who did this. His electrical prof, a former electrical engineer for the Apollo series, warned all the students the same way. BUT when he finally did meet a guy who believed this he laughed so hard he nearly had to be carried out on a stretcher.
 
Using non-detergent oil in 2013 is like trying to source 60 octane gasoline nowadays 'cause that's what they used 80-some-years ago and the cars ran fine with it. Air filters? Did anybody say air filters? No, they didn't come with any. Let's suck in that debris, like in the olde days!
 
With all the great modern oil formulations we have available, it would be just PLAIN DUMB to use non-detergent motor oil!!! About as DUMB as fillin' yo' grease gun with VASELINE to lube yo' chassis goodies. Vaseline ain't even NO good to lube yo' distributor cam lobe, just wipes right off in NO time! (Forgive me Henry!) BUT, there are SOME good uses for VASELINE!!!! Bill W.
 
tbirdtbird said:
well we had the 'battery on a board, never concrete' thread last week, and 'put brake fluid in the radiator' this week, we were overdue for non-detergent oil, and prolly next week it will be using original 1928-31 air in the tires.
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HUH??? My tires say "Canadian Air Only" Ya know how hard it is to find an importer for that stuff??? :D:);)

Jim
 
Just to ad to the mix, I have a friend who restores very, very high end classic cars. Does everything himself except the stripes on the body paint. All his rebuilt engines use ND 30 or 40 wt oil. The cars are from the 20's and 30's. Seems like good advice.
 
If that is the shop I think it is, and the car owner I think it is, then the shop is doing no favors to anyone by putting ND in a freshly rebuilt Duesenberg...in fact, that is a crime, especially at 5 million a copy.....
 
BILL WILLIAMSON said:
With all the great modern oil formulations we have available, it would be just PLAIN DUMB to use non-detergent motor oil!!! About as DUMB as fillin' yo' grease gun with VASELINE to lube yo' chassis goodies. Vaseline ain't even NO good to lube yo' distributor cam lobe, just wipes right off in NO time! (Forgive me Henry!) BUT, there are SOME good uses for VASELINE!!!! Bill W.
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Vaseline is good for slicking my hair, not much else than that. As far as the oil crap again I just started using Brad Penn which has the high zinc levels being let out of almost all off the shelf oils now.
 
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