Tom Wesenberg
Well-known member
Just remember, the non-detergent oil leaves the sludge behind, so you should remove the oil pan and side cover every few thousand miles to clean it out.
non- detergent oil
- Thread starter duffer
- Start date
H. L. Chauvin
Well-known member
Non-Detergent Oil & Other Vintage Obsolete Remedies:
A. Corn cobs, Spanish moss, and telephone directory pages were once at a premium in the Model A outdoor plumbing era ; however:
1. Modern hammer electrical powered mills were invented to crunch corns shucks, corn stalks, corn cobs, and corn to maximize the crop volume related nutrition for cows and hogs, so today, corn cobs are difficult to find.
2. Farmers later sprayed their fields with "Endrin" & "Aldrin" which just about wiped out Spanish moss for Southerners.
3. Telephone directories are thinner with fewer pages; maybe because of cell phones & ecologist trying to save trees.
B. Products similar to Soft Charmin and multi-viscosity detergent oil are more user friendly in 2017 and can save on both wear and tear and repairs everywhere.
C. Agree with Mr. T. W.'s hygienic reply no. 61 above .... he always has good suggestions ..... do not encourage sludge.
A. Corn cobs, Spanish moss, and telephone directory pages were once at a premium in the Model A outdoor plumbing era ; however:
1. Modern hammer electrical powered mills were invented to crunch corns shucks, corn stalks, corn cobs, and corn to maximize the crop volume related nutrition for cows and hogs, so today, corn cobs are difficult to find.
2. Farmers later sprayed their fields with "Endrin" & "Aldrin" which just about wiped out Spanish moss for Southerners.
3. Telephone directories are thinner with fewer pages; maybe because of cell phones & ecologist trying to save trees.
B. Products similar to Soft Charmin and multi-viscosity detergent oil are more user friendly in 2017 and can save on both wear and tear and repairs everywhere.
C. Agree with Mr. T. W.'s hygienic reply no. 61 above .... he always has good suggestions ..... do not encourage sludge.
Y-Blockhead
Well-known member
Terry I was just pullin' your lariat.
Haha, But yes as a matter of fact. I retired on Chevron Stock...
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Y-Blockhead
Well-known member
Use detergent oil and run your engine warm enough to vaporize the bad by products of combustion and your engine will love you...
Terry NJ
Well-known member
I also think you've been in politics! Only politicians word questions like that (Now see here, Explain yourself!) Delo is made by Chevron? I learned something!
Terry
Terry
Terry I was just pullin' your lariat.
Terry NJ
Well-known member
I don't mean to start an argument, But.... You are sacrificing both HP and MPG! It takes more power to turn the engine with each power stroke of the engine. Oil may be a lubricant, but it causes internal resistance too. The thicker the oil, the more resistance. Like the heavy flywheels, it takes more power to turn it. Lighten the flywheel and it takes less, hence, more power to the wheels. So good luck with it.
Terry
Terry
why???
Note: It only takes more power to accelerate the heavy flywheel. At a steady engine speed, it takes the same power to turn the flywheel, no matter what it weighs. In fact, the flywheel is storing power (energy) between power strokes. The heavier the flywheel, the more energy it stores.
Terry NJ
Well-known member
From a purely mechanical aspect, I'd say you're correct. Factor in the variable oil resistance and you get differences in the speeds which is why your engine seemingly has more power when it's hot than when it's cold, why the starter turns it faster when the oil is warm and free than when it's cold and thick.
Terry
Terry
greenpondmike
Member
Hi y'all, if you don't mind I would like to throw my two cents in there. I bought a 1984 LTD with a 302 in it that had been neglected. Changed filter and put Havoline 10-40 in it. I went to town to buy some stuff afterwards and came home. After about an hour I cranked it back up and it rattled bad. I shut it off and later on took off the oil pickup tube. It was clogged bad. I cleaned the screen and the engine ran fine afterwards.
I'm saying all this because y'all are talking about adding detergent oil to vehicles that has sludge and build up in them and saying that it's going to be alright, but I wanted to share my negative experience doing that.
Also, non detergent comes in two grades: SA and SB. The first one is just plain virgin oil, but the SB rated one has 400 ppm of zddp in it. Detergents hurt the zddp and it isn't as effective in detergent oils, so they add more zddp to make up for all those detergents. When detergents are absent from an oil 400 ppm of zddp is all you need.
As for vehicles lasting on this stuff, a friend of mine's dad had an old 71 torino that he changed the oil regular on. The car went many miles and went through 3 timing chains. Yes, he did change the oil regular, but used that saxon SA rated non detergent 30wt in it. I always considered that as junk oil, but his engine still lasted and he wasn't easy on his vehicles either.
Ps, that was valvoline non detergent 30wt SB rated oil with the 400ppm of zddp. Napa oil which used to be made by ashland (maybe still is) might have the same amount as valvoline.
I'm saying all this because y'all are talking about adding detergent oil to vehicles that has sludge and build up in them and saying that it's going to be alright, but I wanted to share my negative experience doing that.
Also, non detergent comes in two grades: SA and SB. The first one is just plain virgin oil, but the SB rated one has 400 ppm of zddp in it. Detergents hurt the zddp and it isn't as effective in detergent oils, so they add more zddp to make up for all those detergents. When detergents are absent from an oil 400 ppm of zddp is all you need.
As for vehicles lasting on this stuff, a friend of mine's dad had an old 71 torino that he changed the oil regular on. The car went many miles and went through 3 timing chains. Yes, he did change the oil regular, but used that saxon SA rated non detergent 30wt in it. I always considered that as junk oil, but his engine still lasted and he wasn't easy on his vehicles either.
Ps, that was valvoline non detergent 30wt SB rated oil with the 400ppm of zddp. Napa oil which used to be made by ashland (maybe still is) might have the same amount as valvoline.
Aarongriffey
Well-known member
I had a friend/customer that could only put 4 quarts of oil in his ‘49 Chrysler Imperial.
He changed oil 20 times using detergent oil in a 10 year period.
It would still only hold 4 quarts and would show July on the dipstick.
I pulled the pan and removed a more than one inch thick pancake from the bottom of the oil pan.
So much for the B.S. story of detergent oil loosening up the sludge and crud.
Detergent oil will keep the crud from building up more but it will not dissolve the crud that’s already there.
I now use 5/30 in the model T, 10/40 in everything else.
The T has a splash system. You can’t splash roofing tar.
How come a lot of new cars now call for 0/20? Is that so the won’t last long?
We ran my wife’s Toyota on 5/30 the first 150,000 miles.
Then switched to 10/30. Didn’t make much difference.
Now at 270,000 it uses oil so we switched to 10/40.
The factories no longer use non detergent oil at the assembly line and I don’t use non detergent oil when I rebuild an engine for myself or a customer.
Most people that use non detergent say they use it because, “I was told”.
It’s the same story with guys that only use high test gas in their model A or modern car.
You can’t tell them that raising the octane lowers the rate that the stuff explodes at.
He changed oil 20 times using detergent oil in a 10 year period.
It would still only hold 4 quarts and would show July on the dipstick.
I pulled the pan and removed a more than one inch thick pancake from the bottom of the oil pan.
So much for the B.S. story of detergent oil loosening up the sludge and crud.
Detergent oil will keep the crud from building up more but it will not dissolve the crud that’s already there.
I now use 5/30 in the model T, 10/40 in everything else.
The T has a splash system. You can’t splash roofing tar.
How come a lot of new cars now call for 0/20? Is that so the won’t last long?
We ran my wife’s Toyota on 5/30 the first 150,000 miles.
Then switched to 10/30. Didn’t make much difference.
Now at 270,000 it uses oil so we switched to 10/40.
The factories no longer use non detergent oil at the assembly line and I don’t use non detergent oil when I rebuild an engine for myself or a customer.
Most people that use non detergent say they use it because, “I was told”.
It’s the same story with guys that only use high test gas in their model A or modern car.
You can’t tell them that raising the octane lowers the rate that the stuff explodes at.
john charlton
Well-known member
I did post this some years ago on the "Barn" so here is the same story .In the mid sixties my mother in law had a early thirties Morris 12 hp . It was reliable and used every day for her to go to work and back, about a 10 mile round trip .It used oil but she checked her oil level and oil was cheap so the very high mileage 30 year old car kept going . It used straight mineral SAE 40 which was dispensed by hand pump from a 45 gall drum in glass jugs at the local gas station. I came back from a long trip at sea to find mother in law no longer had the Morris . Shell "X 100" detergent oil was new on the market it was sold in cans with a pull top and she was sweet talked by the lad at the gas station that this new oil was vastly better so of course she bought some . It killed the engine in very short order certainly not a long process the detergent in the new oil must have been very efficient . An autopsy at the local garage revealed the oil pump screen was blocked and terminal lack of lubrication had occurred. I knew that detergent oils were on the market and had told her NEVER NEVER change from the oil from the drum .This of course was in a high mileage engine which had run on straight mineral oil all its long life so a worse case scenario !!!
John in sunny morning Suffolk County England
John in sunny morning Suffolk County England
greenpondmike
Member
I use detergent oils myself and continued to use it in that 302 after I cleaned the screen. It NEVER had a oiling problem again even after my brother in law put that engine in a truck. He also pulled the pickup tube just to look at it and it was clean. I was just saying that going from not changing your oil regular(previous owners(s))and then changing it could cause problems--it did me, no b.s. Also, going from non detergent to detergent oil could cause problems. I guess it all depends how the sediment has settled, but to each their own.
I would still use SB rated oil in an air cooled engine without a filter although I have also got a lot of service out of ones that had detergent oil in them. The main thing is keep oil in them, keep it clean and keep and maintain an air filter on them. Most lawn mower cylinders are aluminum and scratch up easily. May last longer with non detergent 30.
Ps, calling someone's opinion b.s. is no way to make friends dude. I had to get that pickup screen red hot on a stove and then hit it up against a tree to get all that crud out....I guess I just imagined that.
I would still use SB rated oil in an air cooled engine without a filter although I have also got a lot of service out of ones that had detergent oil in them. The main thing is keep oil in them, keep it clean and keep and maintain an air filter on them. Most lawn mower cylinders are aluminum and scratch up easily. May last longer with non detergent 30.
Ps, calling someone's opinion b.s. is no way to make friends dude. I had to get that pickup screen red hot on a stove and then hit it up against a tree to get all that crud out....I guess I just imagined that.
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Jack Shaft
BANNED
Detergent oil does not break down sludge,what it does do is hold debris in suspension and keep them from depositing on internal parts.This is the 'detergent' effect it keep the debris entrained in the oil so it comes out with the oil change,not lay in the pan.
.Non detergent oils allow debris to fall out of suspension,creating sludge when they settle,often in the bottom of the pan.
I use diesel grade engine oils for their superior load and shear additives over gasoline engine oils.'Load' aids the hydrodynamic principle,the thin film of oil your crankshaft rides on. 'Shear' is the oils ability tolerate the wiping effect of rings. Both help extend the life of the engine.
.Non detergent oils allow debris to fall out of suspension,creating sludge when they settle,often in the bottom of the pan.
I use diesel grade engine oils for their superior load and shear additives over gasoline engine oils.'Load' aids the hydrodynamic principle,the thin film of oil your crankshaft rides on. 'Shear' is the oils ability tolerate the wiping effect of rings. Both help extend the life of the engine.
Patrick L.
Well-known member
I grew up thru the switch from mineral to dispersant oil and saw most of what can or doesn't happen.
As with most things there are some truths and some old wives tales. Yet there always seems to be an exception to a rule.
As a aside, I tend to like asides, growing up in a Ford store most of the oiling issues we saw were from the wonderful valve seals Ford used for decades. As they disintegrated and worked their way to the base they would clog the pick-up screen and then find their way past the bypass slot in the screen and climb up into the pump. That would then bind the pump and twist up the distributor drive. That would usually shut down the engine before too much damage was caused. That usually happened at an inopportune time.
Many mechanics would change the seals without flushing the scraps from the base which sometimes caused that issue. Or the seals could do it all by themselves.
Well, other oiling issues also came from the rear camshaft bearing twisting in its bore, but that just stopped oil to the rockers. Remember seeing all that stupid plumbing to the valve covers on the Y-blocks, all that had to be done was pop the rear plug, twist or replace the bushing and stake it in place.
As with most things there are some truths and some old wives tales. Yet there always seems to be an exception to a rule.
As a aside, I tend to like asides, growing up in a Ford store most of the oiling issues we saw were from the wonderful valve seals Ford used for decades. As they disintegrated and worked their way to the base they would clog the pick-up screen and then find their way past the bypass slot in the screen and climb up into the pump. That would then bind the pump and twist up the distributor drive. That would usually shut down the engine before too much damage was caused. That usually happened at an inopportune time.
Many mechanics would change the seals without flushing the scraps from the base which sometimes caused that issue. Or the seals could do it all by themselves.
Well, other oiling issues also came from the rear camshaft bearing twisting in its bore, but that just stopped oil to the rockers. Remember seeing all that stupid plumbing to the valve covers on the Y-blocks, all that had to be done was pop the rear plug, twist or replace the bushing and stake it in place.
greenpondmike
Member
Well, something broke it down and the engine ran fine before I changed the oil and filter. The car belonged to a friend of mine and I knew the car before I even got it. Maybe my detergent oil was different and had mischievous little midgets in it. I've also noticed that dirty engines become cleaner by using detergent oils and changing them real regular, so it seems like they are doing more than holding stuff in suspension. By real regular I mean from 1000 to 3000 miles. Valvoline's add pack is depleted after 3000 and it just gets weaker before that. I use delo 15w-40 in my truck with lucas zddp additive since I gave these modern car oils one last chance and it cost me a few lifters and almost ruint my cam. One lifter stuck and wasn't turning in its bore and the cam lobe ate it up. Lifters need to turn in their bore or they will wear. Clean pennzoil 10w-30 high mileage let that happen.
Edit: I see someone else posted while I was posting. I was referring to the posts above that one.
Edit: I see someone else posted while I was posting. I was referring to the posts above that one.
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Jack Shaft
BANNED
I ran a 250 tractor truck fleet,oil properties and engine life were a critical part of the job.I worked with oil jobbers and learned oil designs to aide my endeavor,to extend the drain interval to 30k miles,basically cutting by a factor of two the amount of times the tractor need service..went to a hybrid synthetic oil,save the company quite a bit of money and increased revenue by keeping the truck on the road longer.
ZDDP or zinc isnt a factor with model a's,forged camshaft vs cast camshaft
ZDDP or zinc isnt a factor with model a's,forged camshaft vs cast camshaft
greenpondmike
Member
I know. I'm referring to my daily driven truck from the early 70s. No upgrades and original valve springs--6 cyl. Any anti friction additives couldn't hurt though. All oil went down hill after the SJ rating. I've read that even newer engines are now suffering and they are fixing to come out with a new classification to address that or so they say.