ModelA29
Well-known member
Ford still has the "profit cap" in their contracts for suppliers. That is why most of the suppliers keep 2 sets of books.
130-A Deluxe Delivery 1928 Prototype Info.
- Thread starter Rowdy
- Start date
Ford still has the "profit cap" in their contracts for suppliers. That is why most of the suppliers keep 2 sets of books.
Brad in Germany
Well-known member
Jim, 90 years later a gas tank could have been changed....or even a chassis.
Having a tail lamp bracket bolted to the lower body sub-rail is a '28 'item' vs. the common '29 tail lamp on the r/r fender.
Manage your expectations regarding the Benson Archives which consists mostly of Ford blue prints etc. Information from body sub-contractors usually was retained & destroyed by the contractor as they went out of business or got sold. All that 'golden' info became land fill.
You need to explore all the differences of your Father's car vs other '29 DD's, starting based gas tank dates.
Enjoy your quest, jb
Having a tail lamp bracket bolted to the lower body sub-rail is a '28 'item' vs. the common '29 tail lamp on the r/r fender.
Manage your expectations regarding the Benson Archives which consists mostly of Ford blue prints etc. Information from body sub-contractors usually was retained & destroyed by the contractor as they went out of business or got sold. All that 'golden' info became land fill.
You need to explore all the differences of your Father's car vs other '29 DD's, starting based gas tank dates.
Enjoy your quest, jb
Hi JB, many thanks again. That was great advice. I went through all the original notes on this delivery, other research materials and then compared it to all the other production 1929 and beyond Deluxe Deliveries. Here is what I found. I also attached a picture of my deluxe delivery and also a 1929 Production Deluxe Delivery. The photo of the production engine is in line with all the other deluxe delivery engines I have see. There are quite a few differences between my Delivery and Production Deliveries. I welcome any feedback.
Vehicle Background
• My Deluxe Delivery was assembled in Chicago, frame stamped.
• This delivery was left in a “barn” in Indiana from 1955-2003
• Purchased by Lt. Col Tom Philpott in 2003
• Brought back to Georgetown, Tx for restoration. (This would be Tom Philpott’s 5th Model A restoration), he had owned, driven and restored Model A’s most of his life.
• Tom Philpott was a very experienced Model A restorer. At the time of this restoration, he owned 4 other Model A’s including a 1931 Delivery. In his expert opinion, these parts were part of the original build.
Key differences between this Delivery and what I have seen on production Deliveries:
o This Delivery has an early model A (AR) chassis, hand brake is on the left side. This was used through June of 1928.
o This Engine stamp shows May of 1928.
o Having a May 1928 engine, allotting time for shipping the engine and then putting it on an AR chassis. This time frame lines up with a Oct-Nov. 1928 Prototype.
o This Delivery has a solid front motor mount, they were used through Nov. 1928.
o It has a cad plated generator end cover; these were not used after 1928.
o This Delivery has a fan shroud, I have not seen one on any of the production Deliveries that I have found. Ford stopped using the fan shroud in Feb. 1929.
o This Delivery has a square starter switch, Ford stopped using these in Oct. 1928.
o This Delivery has the body mounted rear taillight bracket and drum taillight.
o This Delivery was unusual in the fact that the metal body panels were bolted together and then nailed to the wood frame. We have not found any production deliveries with them nailed, the ones we have seen used rivets, which would make sense on an assembly line. In Oct. and Nov. of 1928, production lines were not set up yet for the production Deliveries. So, it is believed the prototypes were put together basically by hand. Nailing the body to the wood frame would be in line with that. In addition to using other unusual parts. Which were found on this Delivery.
• During restoration he was visited by Ken Smith “Editor of the Lone Star Model A Ford Club”. Ken wrote an article in approx. 2005 about this Delivery. Here is quote from Ken after spending the day with Tom Philpott. “I visited Tom Philpott while he was restoring his 1928 Model A Delivery Truck. At that time the frame was off, and Tom showed me parts that didn’t belong on any Model A Ford that I had ever seen or read about. We spent some time examining the parts and believed the car was a prototype or very early test model”.
• Tom also shared notes with Les Andrews during restoration, Les was confident he had one of the other 2 remaining Preproduction Deliveries.
Vehicle Background
• My Deluxe Delivery was assembled in Chicago, frame stamped.
• This delivery was left in a “barn” in Indiana from 1955-2003
• Purchased by Lt. Col Tom Philpott in 2003
• Brought back to Georgetown, Tx for restoration. (This would be Tom Philpott’s 5th Model A restoration), he had owned, driven and restored Model A’s most of his life.
• Tom Philpott was a very experienced Model A restorer. At the time of this restoration, he owned 4 other Model A’s including a 1931 Delivery. In his expert opinion, these parts were part of the original build.
Key differences between this Delivery and what I have seen on production Deliveries:
o This Delivery has an early model A (AR) chassis, hand brake is on the left side. This was used through June of 1928.
o This Engine stamp shows May of 1928.
o Having a May 1928 engine, allotting time for shipping the engine and then putting it on an AR chassis. This time frame lines up with a Oct-Nov. 1928 Prototype.
o This Delivery has a solid front motor mount, they were used through Nov. 1928.
o It has a cad plated generator end cover; these were not used after 1928.
o This Delivery has a fan shroud, I have not seen one on any of the production Deliveries that I have found. Ford stopped using the fan shroud in Feb. 1929.
o This Delivery has a square starter switch, Ford stopped using these in Oct. 1928.
o This Delivery has the body mounted rear taillight bracket and drum taillight.
o This Delivery was unusual in the fact that the metal body panels were bolted together and then nailed to the wood frame. We have not found any production deliveries with them nailed, the ones we have seen used rivets, which would make sense on an assembly line. In Oct. and Nov. of 1928, production lines were not set up yet for the production Deliveries. So, it is believed the prototypes were put together basically by hand. Nailing the body to the wood frame would be in line with that. In addition to using other unusual parts. Which were found on this Delivery.
• During restoration he was visited by Ken Smith “Editor of the Lone Star Model A Ford Club”. Ken wrote an article in approx. 2005 about this Delivery. Here is quote from Ken after spending the day with Tom Philpott. “I visited Tom Philpott while he was restoring his 1928 Model A Delivery Truck. At that time the frame was off, and Tom showed me parts that didn’t belong on any Model A Ford that I had ever seen or read about. We spent some time examining the parts and believed the car was a prototype or very early test model”.
• Tom also shared notes with Les Andrews during restoration, Les was confident he had one of the other 2 remaining Preproduction Deliveries.
Attachments
WTSHNN
Well-known member
What is the number on the body stamping?
While anything is possible it is very unlikely that a left hand brake chassis would have been used as late as October or November of '28. Ford was quick to obsolete that brake setup to conform to various laws requiring separate service and emergency brake systems. Additionally engines shipped from the Rouge to Chicago could be delivered in a day or two. Those factories far from Dearborn may see as long as a month delivery time.
-Tim
Jim,
From here you will need to get serious documentation.
You need a copy of the 2005 article about the car. The evidence you need might be in the back ground of any pictures taken.
Unfortunately there is nothing unique about your Deliveries' chassis. Even if you lifted the body to expose the frame number (matching the engine??) it is still a common chassis used under any Ford car May thru November.
You are loosing me when you say the body is nailed to a frame. FORD never produced a car body with a wooden sub-frame. His sub-contractors did, Briggs & Murray.
Most production Deliveries have a skeletal frame onto which the rear door skin is nailed. The metal quarter panels are also nailed to a wooden frame surrounding the rear door providing support. The remaining body wood is to support the roof bows & rain gutters.
One has to wonder where a May '28 chassis sat until being used, say in September for your Delivery body ??
A more likely event was Ford contacted with Budd (Philly) to build a small body Delivery from the dimensions of their Tudor sedan. To accomplish this a complete chassis (yours ??), fenders, cowl, & Tudor sedan shell (w/ steel sub frame)were shipped to Budd.
It is unusual to create only one prototype. Some can be trashed when they 'don't work out', moving on to 'plan b'. This might account for the time from May until maybe September.
One of the first Delivery prototypes with two different paint schemes was photographed in front of Ford Engineering, Dearborn. From there yours could have been displayed at a Chicago auto show before being sold.
This is my best guess.
jb
From here you will need to get serious documentation.
You need a copy of the 2005 article about the car. The evidence you need might be in the back ground of any pictures taken.
Unfortunately there is nothing unique about your Deliveries' chassis. Even if you lifted the body to expose the frame number (matching the engine??) it is still a common chassis used under any Ford car May thru November.
You are loosing me when you say the body is nailed to a frame. FORD never produced a car body with a wooden sub-frame. His sub-contractors did, Briggs & Murray.
Most production Deliveries have a skeletal frame onto which the rear door skin is nailed. The metal quarter panels are also nailed to a wooden frame surrounding the rear door providing support. The remaining body wood is to support the roof bows & rain gutters.
One has to wonder where a May '28 chassis sat until being used, say in September for your Delivery body ??
A more likely event was Ford contacted with Budd (Philly) to build a small body Delivery from the dimensions of their Tudor sedan. To accomplish this a complete chassis (yours ??), fenders, cowl, & Tudor sedan shell (w/ steel sub frame)were shipped to Budd.
It is unusual to create only one prototype. Some can be trashed when they 'don't work out', moving on to 'plan b'. This might account for the time from May until maybe September.
One of the first Delivery prototypes with two different paint schemes was photographed in front of Ford Engineering, Dearborn. From there yours could have been displayed at a Chicago auto show before being sold.
This is my best guess.
jb
Hi JB,
Below is a post my Father made on FordBarn, at this point my Father had been researching the vehicle for about 3 years. I also have a copy of the Article by Ken Smith, it was written earlier than this post. I'll get that scanned.
Re: 130A DeLuxe Delivery build date.
Posted by tom philpott from dial-b-128-83-254-157.telesys.its.utexas.edu (128.83.254.157) on Friday, June 22, 2007 at 11:27AM:
In Reply to: 130ADeLuxeDeliverybuilddate, posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C from
24-151-170-117.dhcp.kgpt.tn.charter.com (24.151.170.117) on Thursday, June 21, 2007 at 10:19AM:
As the owner of the particular Deluxe Delivery I can shed a little light on it. The first Ford PreProduction delivery was pictured at theFord Factory in November of 1928. Unfortunately the actual production records were destroyed in a Fire back in th 70's so no one knows for sure how many preproduction Deliveries were actually made. It is known that Murray and Briggs the major coach builders for Ford were probably producing at their capacity during that period and Ford went to an independent coach builder, Budd Mfg company to build the Deluxe Delivery bodies. The bodies were then placed on a Tudoor Sedan chassie.
Due to the the problems with Budd getting into production and the Ford plants getting new assembly lines running probably few if any regular production Deluxe Deliveries were assembled in 1928. However, Budd did assemble a few body kits (some people think as many as a couplehundred, others say only a dozen or so)which were shipped to the various Ford Plants for assembly. On my Delivery the metal body panels were bolted together and and then nailed to the woodframe (I have seen later 29 bodies where the metal panels appeared to be
riveted together).
My Delivery was assembled in Chicago. It appears they received one of Budd's body kits and as there was no production line set up they just hand assembled it using anything they had available. The engine # (and chassie #) indicate ti was a May 1928 engine. Which means the rolling chassie was put together 4 to 6 weeks later (the time it took to get the engine out to a plant) and was one of the last AR's assembled. It is known that they used some of the left over AR rolling chassies for Commercial vehicles and thats what they did with my delivery. They also used all types of left over parts on my delivery, many Ihad never seen before and Ithink may have been Model Tparts. Iunderstand most of the preproduction Deliveries were either used as factory display models to take orders or some people think Ford wanted to get some of them out on the street as publicity and shipped them to big customers who bought fleets of 25 or 50 Deliveries such as Jewel Tea. As the plant records have been lost no one knows exactly how many preproduction Deliveries were actually made in 1928 and many people have different ideas. I'm certain however, that this was one of the few preproductions deliveries built in 1928. Hope this answers your question.
Below is a post my Father made on FordBarn, at this point my Father had been researching the vehicle for about 3 years. I also have a copy of the Article by Ken Smith, it was written earlier than this post. I'll get that scanned.
Re: 130A DeLuxe Delivery build date.
Posted by tom philpott from dial-b-128-83-254-157.telesys.its.utexas.edu (128.83.254.157) on Friday, June 22, 2007 at 11:27AM:
In Reply to: 130ADeLuxeDeliverybuilddate, posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C from
24-151-170-117.dhcp.kgpt.tn.charter.com (24.151.170.117) on Thursday, June 21, 2007 at 10:19AM:
As the owner of the particular Deluxe Delivery I can shed a little light on it. The first Ford PreProduction delivery was pictured at theFord Factory in November of 1928. Unfortunately the actual production records were destroyed in a Fire back in th 70's so no one knows for sure how many preproduction Deliveries were actually made. It is known that Murray and Briggs the major coach builders for Ford were probably producing at their capacity during that period and Ford went to an independent coach builder, Budd Mfg company to build the Deluxe Delivery bodies. The bodies were then placed on a Tudoor Sedan chassie.
Due to the the problems with Budd getting into production and the Ford plants getting new assembly lines running probably few if any regular production Deluxe Deliveries were assembled in 1928. However, Budd did assemble a few body kits (some people think as many as a couplehundred, others say only a dozen or so)which were shipped to the various Ford Plants for assembly. On my Delivery the metal body panels were bolted together and and then nailed to the woodframe (I have seen later 29 bodies where the metal panels appeared to be
riveted together).
My Delivery was assembled in Chicago. It appears they received one of Budd's body kits and as there was no production line set up they just hand assembled it using anything they had available. The engine # (and chassie #) indicate ti was a May 1928 engine. Which means the rolling chassie was put together 4 to 6 weeks later (the time it took to get the engine out to a plant) and was one of the last AR's assembled. It is known that they used some of the left over AR rolling chassies for Commercial vehicles and thats what they did with my delivery. They also used all types of left over parts on my delivery, many Ihad never seen before and Ithink may have been Model Tparts. Iunderstand most of the preproduction Deliveries were either used as factory display models to take orders or some people think Ford wanted to get some of them out on the street as publicity and shipped them to big customers who bought fleets of 25 or 50 Deliveries such as Jewel Tea. As the plant records have been lost no one knows exactly how many preproduction Deliveries were actually made in 1928 and many people have different ideas. I'm certain however, that this was one of the few preproductions deliveries built in 1928. Hope this answers your question.
Hi JB, once again very good advice from you. I continue to find more differences in this Delivery. For this Delivery at the top of the hood louvres, they are not parralell with the hinge line (in 1929 and later models the louvres are parralell. This Delivery also has 1928 Headlights, they are nickel plated and the lenses have only vertical flutes (these were used on 1928 models, they were changed in 1929). This Delivery also appears to have a 1928 carburator, it is unmarked, Ford started marking the carburators in 1929. This along with the long list of other differences that I previously posted. Unfortunately as my Father mentioned all the Ford and also Budd documentation has been destroyed. So what we do know as fact was that there were Prototypes built in 1928. Its unknown as to how many preproduction models were made. What I do know is this Delivery is different from any other Delivery I have found so far. It has a may 1928 engine. I have found documentation showing that sometimes engines sat for several months before being installed. This Delivery is also built with an AR Chassis. I will continue to document all the differences in this Delivery, it is becoming a long list. What seems pretty clear is that almost every part of this vehicle is a 1928, the body is built by Budd Mfg, who did build and deliver some bodies in 1928. Regardless of whether or not it is preproduction or prototype. It is a rare Deluxe Delivery. I have attached the original article that Ken Smith published about this car, he spent the day with my Father while he had the frame off.
To quote Ken from his article "At that time the frame was off and Tom showed me parts that didn't belong on any Model A Ford that I had ever seen or read about."
To quote Ken from his article "At that time the frame was off and Tom showed me parts that didn't belong on any Model A Ford that I had ever seen or read about."
Jim,
Focus on the body construction as the other chassis pieces you mention are common to any May '28 production Ford, not unique. How that body got placed on that chassis will remain interesting speculation.
The owner & author's reference to the use of Model T parts in the chassis assembly was common thinking. A 'knowledgeable' Model A restorer might, not recognizing early '28 chassis parts, and assume they were Model T. A Model T 'guy' wouldn't recognize those pieces either and assume they must be Model A.
Early '27-28 parts thus regarded as 'orphans'.
One tenant in all the car hobby is, "Every car has a story.....and if your car doesn't, you make one up".
It's common Model A knowledge the unique features found in an early chassis. What isn't know, your job, is to discover and identify what makes your Delivery different in construction than the later '29 Deliveries.
Good luck, jb
Focus on the body construction as the other chassis pieces you mention are common to any May '28 production Ford, not unique. How that body got placed on that chassis will remain interesting speculation.
The owner & author's reference to the use of Model T parts in the chassis assembly was common thinking. A 'knowledgeable' Model A restorer might, not recognizing early '28 chassis parts, and assume they were Model T. A Model T 'guy' wouldn't recognize those pieces either and assume they must be Model A.
Early '27-28 parts thus regarded as 'orphans'.
One tenant in all the car hobby is, "Every car has a story.....and if your car doesn't, you make one up".
It's common Model A knowledge the unique features found in an early chassis. What isn't know, your job, is to discover and identify what makes your Delivery different in construction than the later '29 Deliveries.
Good luck, jb
Lastly for those following this thread, long ago at the Dayton Ohio MARC National Meet, a Model A collector, Sheldon Lake displayed his '29 Delivery, which was a converted from '29 Tudor sedan. It still had it's side windows AND a rear door. Sure it had an interesting story as well.
WTSHNN
Well-known member
James, wanting add some info to the above.
While it is true that an engine could sit around for a few months I do not believe that to be the case with your car. If everything on the chassis is original to that chassis then the whole chassis was most likely assembled in May or June. Had the engine sat around for a few months it would of been put into a chassis that was available at that point in time (ebrake handle to front of trans). As I said earlier the left hand brake set up was abandoned by Ford very quickly and they would not of had it sitting around much longer than needed. Especially at a larger assembly plant like Chicago.
Like JB said, focus more on the unique features of the body and less on the chassis.
-Tim
Just for kicks, here is one of the other restorations my Father did in his spare time. It is a 1931 79B. It was converted to a Police Paddy Wagon in Michigan in the 30's. This was his last (6th) Model A restoration. Shocked he he had time to restore any of them. He was a Navigator in the AF for 25 years, served in Vietnam, raised 6 boys and then taught classes at the University of Texas till he retired. After the Model A's he restored Austin's (5 of them).
Attachments
Dennis Haag
Member
James, I had conversation with your father about the 28. I have what looks to be maybe a prototype. I posted pictures a few years ago on this post. City bought thru Ford Fleet services a delivery for the dept of public works Milwaukee Wi. I enjoyed discussing our projects with your father. Dennis Haag