A vote for a Digital Judging Standards

dean from bozeman

Well-known member
I expressed this idea in a different thread but am starting a new one so that it isn't lost at the end of a thread but is considered anew. Basically I propose that we create a Visual Judging Standards.One that is accessible to all and could be paid for by limited advertising.

Here's an idea for your review:

It is convenient when judging at a meet, to rely on the sage in the group. The one who has the answers. But what happens if the sage hasn't seen or doesn't accept variations as they came from the factory.

Something as simple as how the patent plate is attached to the firewall could cause trouble. I have seen original cars with the plate's rivets inserted from the front side and other original cars with the rivets inserted from the back. Henry Ford, foremen and the individual assembly line worker didn't have the JS to rely on. There are variations in the way many individual parts were attached to the A as it went down the assembly line. Does a sage know all the ways? Should some ways be excluded?

There are no easy answers but I suggest three things.:

1. That we set up a visual (digital picture archive) for standard areas (engine compartment, drive train, headlights, etc.) and for areas particular to various body styles. The JS committee could pick representative vehicles for this digital JS.

2. That we begin a digital history of the original cars left. I propose that we photograph almost every angle of the original cars that are still unmolested. Yes, I realize that even the most pristine original car may have been slightly altered through the years but there is a lot that could be gleaned from such photos.

3. I propose a database be set up for accessing allowable variances. For instance, a photo of a firewall (Proposal #1) would show the patent plate with the rivets inserted from the front. If the users cursor went over the patent plate, a bubble could variations with a link to a photo.

Yes, perhaps this is a pipe dream but it is also possible with today's technology. I wonder what it would cost.

What is possible? Let's make a digital Judging Standars that is vailable on the Internet. Once set up it could pay for itself with advertising in the margins.

I would suggest that we use a car like Marco's Roadster for the model Model A. It is a gorgeous car that has been well photographed and could serve as a "template" for many features common to all A's and in particular the '30-31 A's.

Seriously folks, I applaud and admire what the JS standards committee does. It is a tough thankless job. Making a visual JS would help those of us who are isolated from clubs, don't have a resident sage or need something that we can see. The JS does a fine job of explaining in words many facets of the details in a Model A but as they say one picture is worth a thousand words.

Here's my vote for a visual Judging Standards.

Thanks for your ear.

Dean from Bozeman
 
Hear ! Hear !!

Good thought, Dean !

I would love to have a Judging Standards on my iphone.:)

Then my wife could tell me I have become an even bigger pain then when I just Google stuff when out for dinner with the Model A Guys and Gals every Friday night.
But think of all the Friday Night trivial questions that would be answered immediately.

I can't imagine why it would be different than how almost every other best selling book has been digitized and made available for a price.:rolleyes:
 
Dean,

I thnk you have an excellent idea. I also do not think it will ever happen. From a few conversations and from reading here on Fordbarn, it is my observation that some of those who are involved in Fine Point Judging like the current system just fine. I doubt that those involved in the system want to change in this manner. If someone not involved were to try to develop this, it would not be accepted by those within the fine point judging system.
 
Dean, highly endorse your suggestion to photograph nice original cars (and really nice NOS parts). A picture is always worth a thousand words. Also, some of the variations (like rivet position on data plates) would be illustrated. I'll volunteer my two and I'm sure other guys with good originals would too. The Early Ford V8 Club has done this in their restoration guides.
 
A digital version of the standards is a good idea. I've carried a copy of the standards/oct 28 parts book/body parts book/standard parts book/trim book and a database I made of all them on my palm for years. The problem is piracy. Anyone that has seen my info, immediately wants a copy. Until you can make it very difficult to copy, digital won't work when the clubs rely on their sales to run. I suggested to watermark each page with the social security number/full name/mothers maiden name etc on each page. Then if anybody wanted to give that away...(whoa, dumber than advertised)[p]I also have a 5x7 copy of all the books in a binder, along with the full size I keep at home...fwiw,jm
 
I too would embrace it in digital format. I would have no problem paying for a subscription or to purchase the digital media. A "sister marque" club already has this sort of thing called an Encyclopedia (2 discs worth) that is for sale along with all of their back-issues of their club magazine. The "searchability" feature is beyond convenient when it comes time to find a keyword.

One other thought, there apparently is several (quite a few maybe) techical seminars that have been produced by JS Committee members which were given at the JS Committee meetings that were digitized onto PowerPoint. As I understand it, these presentations were made as a furthering education for their members. Maybe these could be added to the list too? Also, just going through the past issues of club magazine and selecting tech articles that are correct and could be digitized in a PowerPoint presentation format.

One other thing to comment on Bruce's thought about being on his iPhone, ...this past weekend I was at a swap meet where I was looking at a certain item to purchase but I was unsure from memory whether what I was looking at was date-specific enough to be correct. Having it digitally accessable would have been very nice for me to double check myself.

.
 
Brent, adding technical seminars is a great idea. They are specific, too the point and current. I concur with your idea of how useful it would be at a swap meet.

Bruce's thought is right on. Being at a swap meet and being able to access photos via a phone/ipad/etc. would be extremely helpful and weight a lot less than totting a JS. Don't laugh, I have done this before.

Steve's suggestions about NOS parts is a perfect addendum to original A's.

MCHinson, the thought is to have a digital reference manual. It would probably take years before it would be accepted as a judging aid.

Another thought is to point out original versus reproduction parts. I have been burnt several times by purchasing parts that were repos but sold as original. I know, buyer beware. A point of reference: a fellow wants to buy a pair of cowl lamps from me. I really didn't know if the arms were repo or not on a restored pair. Fortunately I found an original one that had a similar base to it.

Let's keep the thoughts coming.

Thanks.

Dean
 
I just realized...I have a kindle. A kindle version, would be readable on iphone/ipad and pc. Perhaps the clubs could go that route. (i'll be moving all my books to kindle soon. the palm is just too small...fwiw,jm
 
Okay, I'm confused. Is it just selfishness that folks ignore the consequences of putting something out there on digital media? It doesn't matter if Brent, myself or Dean (and others) will actually PAY for a disk. Most folks truly think it's harmless to make just one copy for a friend. Then that friend makes two copies for his two closest Model a buddies. Those two of course make one or two HARMLESS copies, and so on and so on.

Yep, the clubs would rapidly have the disks FLY off the shelves over the first couple months after release and MAYBE sell a whopping 1,000 copies total before sales fall off to a relative trickle. Can you imagine what sales would be after 3-4 years? Not many!

Now some will say just charge a bit more money for each disk to offset the losses from piracy (harmless copies). Yep, then there are fewer copies sold and now you have SOME folks saying "wow, what a rip-off for a simple disk". Now those folks feel justified in distributing copies. After all they were ripped off, right?

The reality is that the clubs would be lucky to just make back expenses which includes necessary travel and lodging for numerous face to face meetings for all the volunteers that put all this stuff together and make it a reality.

Yes, I would love to have all this in digital format. Computers and such have been a way of life for me for well over twenty years. However just because we all want it doesn't solve the inherent problems. Jim's idea of a Kindle version may indeed be a viable solution but I suspect many of the same folks would be selfishly bitching that a semi-free version tailored to them has not been made available.


The concept of an additional web site with advertising revenue doesn't really "hold water", or at least no more than a shot glass. In any type of sales and/or advertising it helps to REALLY understand marketing. All the things we are speaking of have a very small "target market". That means there is a small saturation point. Web sites that make more than pocket change rely on a very large and broad ever changing base, and MILLIONS of individual "hits" per day. If every Model A'er online were to check in on the same web site how many do you think that would bring? Not many, and then there are no new potential "targets". Who would advertise? Only Model A related vendors which already advertise elsewhere and are generally known entities within the hobby. Would they have any compelling reason to spend more than about $20.00 additionally per year? I don't think so!
 

Okay, I'm confused. . . . Most folks truly think it's harmless to make just one copy for a friend. Then that friend makes two copies for his two closest Model a buddies. Those two of course make one or two HARMLESS copies, and so on and so on.. . . Can you imagine what sales would be after 3-4 years? Not many! . . . Now some will say just charge a bit more money for each disk to offset the losses from piracy (harmless copies). . .

Marco, there are plenty of ways to securely "lock" disks. Many require automated online registration to access, view or use the info on a single computer. Making copies or even trying to open a original serial-numbered disk on another machine with a different processor ESN (the computer's serial number) that it is not registered to is impossible.

I have a disk copy of the "green bible" and it is locked beyond the ability of most hackers. Copies of most operating systems, anti-virus, and office programs are locked that way too. You can even control what print options are available- from none (view only) to single 8 x 11 page, to full control.

If this were not possible, the half of California that isn't bankrupt (software developers) soon would be.
 
Marco is spot on with the part about paid advertising.

The only drawback to electronic book readers is to the majority of us who aren't computer savvy, they are a pain in the ***. I have a few E-books but seldom read them, unless I print them out on paper then thumb through them while eating dinner.

Last thing I want to carry around is another piece of electronics. Bad enough I have the cell, the corporate nextel, small digital camera, half a dozen access badges, etc.
 
Marco, that is a good point on advertising. Millions of hits versus hundreds or even thousands is quite a difference. Perhaps Model A advertisers would be willing to do a penny a hit. It would not be a money maker but could it pay for itself?

When considering the economics, is the JS sold just to cover printing costs? Are there other costs? Are committee members reimbursed for travel, room and/or board? Is selling the JS a money maker for the club? If it isn't why not make the knowledge available to all at a cheaper price?

There would be an initial cost of setting something like this up. Would a slight increase in dues pay for it? Couldn't the club still sell CD's, DVD's and a paper form of the JS?

Another consideration is getting new information out. Is printing a new revision delayed until old copies are sold out? What about the loss of knowledge? None of us are getting younger and with each passing year a couple more sages take the last ride.

Another idea would be to include factory blue prints of the parts.

I've never been a guy who says, "It's always been done this way." If other clubs are able to digitize things why can't we? Anyway, it is certainly worth a discussion.

Thanks to all.

Dean
 
If not for the JS how about a database with picture of what all stock original parts look like as I have a very hard time telling a repo part from an original part. Maybe someone has this already? I was thinking of a computer program that you could punch in the year, body style and part and a picture or pictures would pop up and show you an original and repo part and how to tell the differences. If I had the brains or know how on making a program I would . If this was available I would buy the program
 
Last edited:
That's my retirement project, but I'm not retired yet. :o

Can't guarantee how fast it will move when I DO retire, but it will be faster than now. :D

Joe

Thanks. I could not remember whose site it was. I think you have an excellent idea. If you got more publicity, maybe others could email you photos and data to get the project online faster? When complete, your site would probably serve the purpose proposed in this discussion very well.

If your site were finished, it would probably be one of the most popular sites out there for someone restoring a Model A. I retired in July, and I don't seem to have a lot more time now than I did before retirement... I think you are still going to need some help. I hope you get it.
 
Scroll to the bottom of the page and click on page 1 of the Original Model A Parts. It is the start of a photo reference site for every part. (Only page one has data currently.)
 
Marco, there are plenty of ways to securely "lock" disks. Many require automated online registration to access, view or use the info on a single computer. Making copies or even trying to open a original serial-numbered disk on another machine with a different processor ESN (the computer's serial number) that it is not registered to is impossible.

I have a disk copy of the "green bible" and it is locked beyond the ability of most hackers. Copies of most operating systems, anti-virus, and office programs are locked that way too. You can even control what print options are available- from none (view only) to single 8 x 11 page, to full control.

If this were not possible, the half of California that isn't bankrupt (software developers) soon would be.

Do you know of any software companies that specialize in this media? I'd like to see the format used for the big green parts book. Did someone OCR and correct the entire book to make it searchable? Doing what you describe would require licensing an overlay program that does not use PDF. I've never encountered a PDF file that I couldn't open, edit, print, etc., and I'm no "wiz kid"! If you know of any such overlay program that can be licensed for our use I'll personally look into the specifics to see if it really meets the criteria and is cost effective.

I'm quite familiar with all the things you mentioned but not anything applicable to this situation.
 
I don't understand why the Model A Restorer and the Model A News are not available in PDF format?? The benefits of searchable PDF files is tremendous to the restorer. At a key stroke you would be able to search every magazine ever printed within seconds or minutes for any word or combinations of words numbers etc.! The Model T club has 35 years of magazines available for purchase in PDF format.
 
I"m sure that young fellow that has the site" Model a basics" would do a super job on a site for the Js. His site superb!!!!!
 
Back
Top