Mike V. Florida
Well-known member
I read that Steve of Bert's in Denver has installed 260 of them and only found 2 not flat?
New Snyders head
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I read that Steve of Bert's in Denver has installed 260 of them and only found 2 not flat?
I've made upwards of 10,000 of these and there seems to be one or two chronic complainers. Some complaints we hear are so absurd you wouldn't believe it.
Tod
Chuck Sea/Tac
Well-known member
What caused the warp? And what inspection equipment did you use to determine that figure?
Tod
Mine was also warped .011 out of the box. Checked it with a straight edge, then put it on
the surfacer you could see it as it cut it had a twist in it. That was the new 6.0 head. Went back to the 5.5 after that one on the next motor and it was flat as a pancake right out of the box.
Who knows. Maybe the casting was green or something. What do you think Tod?
I know others that had no problems.
They sure pep up the motor.
the surfacer you could see it as it cut it had a twist in it. That was the new 6.0 head. Went back to the 5.5 after that one on the next motor and it was flat as a pancake right out of the box.
Who knows. Maybe the casting was green or something. What do you think Tod?
I know others that had no problems.
They sure pep up the motor.
Tom Wesenberg
Well-known member
I agree with this except about running the straight edge across diagonal corners. Wouldn't a head with a twist now make the center show low on one diagonal, and make the straight edge rock on the high center in the other diagonal?Most guys will tell you a head or block deck can be checked for flatness with a machinist's straight edge or parallel. Unfortunately, this is WRONG!
This distorted plane will measure perfectly "flat" with a machinist's straightedge along any point perpendicular to any edge AND across opposite corners!! It is extremely deceiving and can only be detected with a surface plate or more advanced electronic measuring that 'feels' or scans the entire surface.
Unfortunately it is also possible to produce this error while machining a block or head to correct an out-of -flat condition!It is very easy to instill a torque on a part when clamped for machining. The result is a distorted planar surface like the one above that may NOT be detectable with just a straightedge! You send a head out to be machined, it checks out with a straightedge, but it is like the above illustration!
It is entirely possible that both the block and a well-used head have distorted into MATCHING profiles over time. A surface plate may reveal head spots several thousandths from flat, but the deck may very well be a perfect geometric match.
Making matters even worse, many guys pull heads that have run for a while and have them planed without checking the block. There seems to be a general belief that heads distort, but not block decks. What was a perfect match of two non-planar surfaces is lost. Then the head gasket gets blamed for short life. Pulling the head reveals it's attempt to assume the block distortion, then the head manufacturer gets blamed for a part that does not hold true.
Truing the block before installing a newly planed head, even in-place by hand, requires pulling the studs. Many guys never want to go that far.
FWIW, most new head gaskets will accommodate slight distortions, up to 3 or 4 thousanths. This accommodation ability is lost if a head gasket is re-used. Once compressed they never recover to their pre-crush condition.
I have no explanation without experimenting, which there is no time to do. I check heads all the time and cannot find even .0015 variation. Once they leave the shop who knows what can happen? If they are not stored flat, or on their sides before shipping, they may move. The alloy is fairly soft, as I have stated before. I have never found one that I can slip a .0015 feeler gauge under using a granite inspection plate and/or a precision ground machine level that is 2" wide. Those two combined give me two means that I know are flat and cannot lie. I can also set them up and use an inspection indicator with .001 incremental divisions.
Green castings MAY be the issue, but the demand for heads is so high that aging is probably out of the question. Normalizing may be but that is not my call. I run 5 heads a day. I will be running out of 5.5's soon and we will not be getting castings until November. I will be playing catch up yet again.
The amount of negative feed back we see if so far below 1% I doubt it is worth messing with. The foundry has about a 20% scrap rate and they don't change a thing. I know of a production machine shop that has at least a 10% scrap rate and they don't care. Problems stemming from my end are almost non-existent, so the only reason you will see me chime in is to deal with what may effect my business. Snyder can deal with anyone he thinks is harming him.
If people want to get into this further, email me.
Tod
30 Closed Cab PU
Well-known member
Just a few thoughts and ramblings from a non - expert. I am sure the Barn will correct me where needed
My opinion is we are dealing with designs, materials, methods from the 20s and 30s. Can't expect anything close to perfection. Even in today's world we have warranties on new because things happen.
How much of this is due to the age of the design - materials, design tools, etc.?
In the day, I wonder what Fords scrap rate was, probably a lot higher?
I wonder what the rework rate was, a lot higher?
Is inspecting/grinding heads a science, or more of an art? I do not know, seems to be a lot of discussion on what is proper once you deviate methods for the customer/mechanic. Sounds like Berts has the proper equipment.
How many vehicles had Warranty issues with blown gaskets, warped heads?
If the issue is with the castings, or with material - with the volumes being so low, foundry might not care, and Bert's is too small to sink money into research.
Berts can not control environmental stressors once it leaves Berts - Temp fluctuations, Humidity, stresses in shipping, and what happens at the customer. So heads may ship OK, and have issues at install. This is my opinion.
Are new Heads seasoned, do not know, have been told it is better to use good original parts because they have been seasoned and are more stable.
A part as large and heavy as the A head seems to be a stable metal part, and the assumption is it will never change form - not true, temp change and other factors causes it to change.
In the day the part was designed without computer tools, no ability to look where metal and temp stresses are in the head and design for them. If designed today the head metal/material would probably different/modified, and shaped differently to deal with stresses.
In Berts defense, I myself have been guilty of blaming a supplier or product for something and been wrong. After cooling down and working through things with the supplier find that it is me either doing something incorrectly, not ordering the best quality part (guilty of trying to save dollars, ends up costing me a lot more), or not understanding something. If a supplier is willing to work with you they are usually reputable, and want to see happy customers, if not they will not be in business long.
Of course stuff made in China, South America, etc., bought on the internet, not from a reputable supplier is a different subject.
My opinion is we are dealing with designs, materials, methods from the 20s and 30s. Can't expect anything close to perfection. Even in today's world we have warranties on new because things happen.
How much of this is due to the age of the design - materials, design tools, etc.?
In the day, I wonder what Fords scrap rate was, probably a lot higher?
I wonder what the rework rate was, a lot higher?
Is inspecting/grinding heads a science, or more of an art? I do not know, seems to be a lot of discussion on what is proper once you deviate methods for the customer/mechanic. Sounds like Berts has the proper equipment.
How many vehicles had Warranty issues with blown gaskets, warped heads?
If the issue is with the castings, or with material - with the volumes being so low, foundry might not care, and Bert's is too small to sink money into research.
Berts can not control environmental stressors once it leaves Berts - Temp fluctuations, Humidity, stresses in shipping, and what happens at the customer. So heads may ship OK, and have issues at install. This is my opinion.
Are new Heads seasoned, do not know, have been told it is better to use good original parts because they have been seasoned and are more stable.
A part as large and heavy as the A head seems to be a stable metal part, and the assumption is it will never change form - not true, temp change and other factors causes it to change.
In the day the part was designed without computer tools, no ability to look where metal and temp stresses are in the head and design for them. If designed today the head metal/material would probably different/modified, and shaped differently to deal with stresses.
In Berts defense, I myself have been guilty of blaming a supplier or product for something and been wrong. After cooling down and working through things with the supplier find that it is me either doing something incorrectly, not ordering the best quality part (guilty of trying to save dollars, ends up costing me a lot more), or not understanding something. If a supplier is willing to work with you they are usually reputable, and want to see happy customers, if not they will not be in business long.
Of course stuff made in China, South America, etc., bought on the internet, not from a reputable supplier is a different subject.
Chuck Sea/Tac
Well-known member
30 Closed Cab PU
Well-known member
Did I confuse Berts with Snyders. If so I apologize. Looks like Tod is Snyders
What is a "never installed one inch shaft?" Find out what the shop used and let me know.
Tod