1914 Model T touring

[jesselashcraft]

What do you think fellas?

I really don't know very much about the car but I'm under the impression that it's mostly original with the exception of a rear view mirror on the front left fender (I've never seen pictures of Model T's with a mirror there before) and one of those wolf/train whistles on the exhaust pipe.

ship# 409023
engine block# 346779

 

[15max]

One obvious change is a later front axle. The '14 wishbone was mounted above the axle not below. All else seems correct for a 1914 from what I can see. Looks like a fun car to have.

 

[Royce P]

Looks like a great car. For the right price it might be a great car to own. I think $10,000 would be the upper limit if the wood in the body is all good and there is no rust out in the metal panels.

Look at the wood under the front seat cushion. There will be a date stamp of when the body was built. The engine was serialized in late September 1913 so I would expect the body date to be a week or two earlier. The date will be in the form of a month and year.

 

[jesselashcraft]

One obvious change is a later front axle. The '14 wishbone was mounted above the axle not below...

Thanks for the input, Max.

- Do you think there were any advantages with this axle? Maybe beefier with the wishbone on the bottom? Better ride? Anything?

- If I should change the axle to the proper year, would that require any other components in addition to the axle? For example, would the same wishbone work above the axle?

- Might this be the reason the speedometer was disconnected? The wheel hub with the spacer lip and the cog gear for the instrument came with my car and it looks to me like they would work just fine with this axle, yes?

- Can you identify the current axle from my pictures?

 

[jesselashcraft]

Look at the wood under the front seat cushion. There will be a date stamp of when the body was built...

Thanks for the feedback, Royce.

I can't find the stamp. It looks like the lid for the gas tank has been replaced at some point and not a very good job either. It appears to be vegetable crate material from the farmer's market.

The tank itself may be riding a little high in the compartment as a hole was cut out (apparently with a chopping tool) to accommodate the gas cap. Or is that the way it's suppose to be? I ask because the lid is on hinges. Why would the lid be on hinges unless you had to open it to get to the gas cap?

Can you (or anyone) post a photo sometime of what that's supposed to look like?

 

[Steve Jelf]

A little about the under-axle wishbone (1919 & later): The reason Ford changed to the later setup was the possibility of the axle folding under if the car hit a solid object with the older arrangement. This is why you see it changed on many pre-1919 cars (like my 1915). A common period accessory is the under-axle add-on which gives support above and below the axle. I've even seen home-made versions. If you want to go strictly stock and correct for the year, you need over-the-axle wishbone and perches. That's fine if the car is only driven on and off a trailer, and in parades. If it's driven much, I prefer the "modern" version. That said, many Model T's always had the original arrangement and never had a problem.

 

[jesselashcraft]

A little about the under-axle wishbone (1919 & later)...

Thanks for the insight, Steve. This is exactly the kind of "corporate memory" I'm looking for.

Keep it coming, gentlemen. I thrive on hearing every opinion, story, fact and/or factoid to facilitate getting my pea-brain wrapped around an issue.

If you want to, just linking a previous post would be swell.

A common period accessory is the under-axle add-on which gives support above and below the axle. I've even seen home-made versions.

I've seen a picture of it in the book "From Here To Obscurity" that was home-made. So it was an after market accessory as well? Where could I get something like that? Sounds rare.

.

 

[Royce P]

Jesse,

The date, followed by a body maker's assembly number, is stamped into the wood seat frame where the yellow arrow points. It is not on the door.

Here's the number on my '14. IT has the date code 3 14 (March 1914) followed by the body maker's reference number:

 

[jesselashcraft]

Here's the number on my '14. IT has the date code 3 14 (March 1914) followed by the body maker's reference number...

Thanks for the heads up, Royce but I can't see it.

I looked all over the lid and around the wood frame but didn't find it. In my reference book "From Here To Obscurity," it says of the 1915 model that "The body number apparently was located in no standard spot" and said some were located in the right hand door sill but I don't see it there either.

I'll keep looking.

 

[Royce P]

Yours is a '14. The number was only in the one spot indicated by the yellow arrow in my previous post. If the wood has not been replaced it is going to be there.

Thanks for the heads up, Royce but I can't see it.

I looked all over the lid and around the wood frame but didn't find it. In my reference book "From Here To Obscurity," it says of the 1915 model that "The body number apparently was located in no standard spot" and said some were located in the right hand door sill but I don't see it there either.

I'll keep looking.

 

[jesselashcraft]

If the wood has not been replaced it is going to be there.

There must have been some remodeling done along the way.

There are 1/2" spaces between the boards on the gas tank lid giving it the appearance of a potato crate. Is that the way it's supposed to look?

 

[Royce P]

It appears the door over the gas tank was remade at some point. Your gas cap is not a Ford type either.

There must have been some remodeling done along the way.

There are 1/2" spaces between the boards on the gas tank lid giving it the appearance of a potato crate. Is that the way it's supposed to look?

 

[jesselashcraft]

Your gas cap is not a Ford type either.

Hi Royce -

Can you identify that gas cap?

 

[stevests]

One of several aftermarket accessory caps - I have one like it.

 

[yachtsmanbill]

IMHO... it looks like a later 4 dip pan, and also SCRUTINIZE the lower water jacket corner on the inlet side. Looks kinda crusty and may be rusted through... ws

 

[jesselashcraft]

Thanks for the input fellas -

Hi Bill - When you talk to me, assume I don't know anything about anything.

So you're saying the oil pan may not be the one that came with this engine? What's the significance of a 4 dip pan? Did it address a lubricating problem of the earlier models?

...SCRUTINIZE the lower water jacket corner on the inlet side. Looks kinda crusty and may be rusted through...

Could you be more specific? If you're talking about the white substance on the lower right hand corner of the radiator, there's some cotton-like fiber under the bottom fin there. I don't know why. That doesn't seem like a plausible temporary leak fix, does it?

 

[stevests]

Appears to be the correct long, narrow nose pan.

 

[yachtsmanbill]

Sorry about the obfuscation. Look at the inspection cover on the oil pan. The early long snout pans had a 3 rod dip pattern with the 4th rod dip on the main oilpan itself. Made adjusting #4 rod and rear main a daunting task. The later style inspection cover had all 4 dips which helped make rod adjusting a simpler task. At 100 years old, whos to say some one didn't take a later pan and change the snout and oil dam. If the angle of the picture was a bit lower, it would be obvious.
The second comment was regarding the water passage erosion/corrosion. On the drivers side of the block where the lower radiator hose attaches to the water jacket, it appears that the paint is showing corrosion bleeding from underneath, POSSIBLY indicating a crack that is leaking. The 1926 & 27 blocks were being cast a bit thinner up there and they tended to rust through faster. Again, with 100 years of well water cooling the engine, anything is possible, up to and including a freezing crack. If in doubt, clean with a wire toothbrush and check with a flashlight and mirror, or just fill it with water. ws

 

[jesselashcraft]

Look at the inspection cover on the oil pan. The early long snout pans had a 3 rod dip pattern with the 4th rod dip on the main oil pan itself.

Hi Bill - I took a trip under my car today and brought the camera with me. Yeah, that's what I got. Here's a better picture.

On the drivers side of the block where the lower radiator hose attaches to the water jacket, it appears that the paint is showing corrosion bleeding from underneath, POSSIBLY indicating a crack that is leaking.

Good catch. Under the lip just south of the block date stamp is a crack about 3" long. Can you make it out at the end of the putty knife? It's not noticeable looking down into the engine compartment through the open hood. You have to get under the car. I only drove the car once 40 years ago when I bought it and the previous owner started it for me a couple times but apparently, we didn't operate it long enough to get it hot enough to cause a geyser. It's been stored ever since with no coolant in it. I was just starting out in the Navy at the time of the purchase and the intent has always been a retirement project for me.

Let the buyer beware, eh? I've been pimped from another dimension!

I've talked on the phone to a shop in northern Cincinnati:

http://ronsmachineshop.net/Catalog_files/Master Catalog 2012 PDF.pdf

They've been repairing cracked blocks for 40 years and without seeing the wound, based on where it's located, they're upbeat about fixing it for $65 an inch with a process they call "drilling & stitching" that doesn't involve welding or soldering. Apparently, they've been mostly successful with it. Familiar with the process?

 

[yachtsmanbill]

I took the liberty of rolling the pic. So Im glad to see you have the correct pan; a slight camera angle can make the world of difference. I hafta start out by telling you that I was raised on Model T's and still have difficulty on another forum with people that have all the answers, yet the questions aren't yet all in... Hmmm . Over here, its more T friendly and not so cliquish.

Drilling and stitching is a well accepted form of repair; but what remains to be seen is what caused it. Overheating? Freezing? How thin is the iron? and most of all, is that the original motor for the car. If the material is still there the stitch will work, but if its really thin there wont be much to work with. Most of the repair depends on YOU.
Semper Paradus pal! Pull the motor and repair it or a little dremel work and some JB weld?? Theres little strain and no pressure on the system and JB seems to work well. Me?? I used 2 raw eggs in my radiator and it held water for 3 years. The new owner replaced it just recently.
Personally, unless youre prepared for a full blown restoration, I'd patch it. Get the car roadworthy again, and drive it for a while to see if you even like the Ts. Once you pull the motor for some work it turns into "shoulda fixed this and shoulda fixed that" and before you know, all the fun is over.
I think you've got a fairly complete barn find that needs wheels looked at, new tires maybe, and look inside the differential for the dreaded babbit thrust washers. In the last decade, they've begun to fail which means NO BRAKES.
Listen to Steve Jelf and Royce as they are more familiar with the older cars. I am well versed on the "improved" models of 1926 and 27... still Ts but almost Model A's! Get her going and have some fun and mind what these guys tell you! T's are like an antique Briggs and Stratton lawn mower versus a new Yardman. Same thing but way different... Im off to recurve the distributor on my antique Buick... 1972 455/ 500 hp GSX... bill

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8fZ1JHLZAU