Reverse rotation camshaft

[Patrick L.]

This is hearsay, I never flew one, but I've been told the hot fighter planes (single engine) would flip right over from engine torque if you "Got on it" on takeoff.
Terry

Two of the 'best' were the Grumman Bearcat and the Vaught Corsair. Just watch film of them if you can't see them for real at an airshow and watch the rudder input at rotation.
That can also be felt and requires correction on some newer twins when light, such as an Aztec.

 

[Benson]

Two of the 'best' were the Grumman Bearcat and the Vaught Corsair. Just watch film of them if you can't see them for real at an airshow and watch the rudder input at rotation.
That can also be felt and requires correction on some newer twins when light, such as an Aztec.

A good place for film would be the 1960's TV series "Black Sheep Squadron". It had a lot of landings and take offs.

Not sure if the film clips were authentic or not! Or how many were repeated over and over.

Might find it on Netflix.

I watched it every week will have to find it again and look closer at the rudders.

I do remember that they did a little sideways jog at or just after rotation but did not know why that was happening.

I just figured it must have been in a crosswind.

Paul Garrigan AKA "Rumble Seat" on Ford Barn repaired and maintained the Pratt and Whitney R2800 engines for the Navy in late 40's or early 50's. I remember him talking about the Navy Carriers and working on those big engines. He talked about the R4360 engines also but I do not know if the Corsair was ever fitted with an engine that big. I suspect that they were used in the bombers.

In the 40 years that I knew him it was always interesting to hear about his exploits...

 

[Terry NJ]

I was too poor during the 60s to even gain admission to airports (LOL) so flying was just a dream until the 90s. But I watched that show religiously without ever pay much attention to the landings or TOs. A few years later, I read Langeschwiesche's "Stick and Rudder" and just about everything else about flying (Including Terry and the Pirates, and his "Bamboo Bomber") But I had no techniques to perfect, so I didn't concentrate on on cockpit operations. Later in ground school, I was taught to kick right rudder as soon as the tail came off the ground. But we weren't dealing with these mega power plants. It was a different world!
Regards, Terry

Two of the 'best' were the Grumman Bearcat and the Vaught Corsair. Just watch film of them if you can't see them for real at an airshow and watch the rudder input at rotation.
That can also be felt and requires correction on some newer twins when light, such as an Aztec.

 

[Patrick L.]

A good place for film would be the 1960's TV series "Black Sheep Squadron". It had a lot of landings and take offs.

Not sure if the film clips were authentic or not! Or how many were repeated over and over.

Might find it on Netflix.

I watched it every week will have to find it again and look closer at the rudders.

I do remember that they did a little sideways jog at or just after rotation but did not know why that was happening.

I just figured it must have been in a crosswind.

Paul Garrigan AKA "Rumble Seat" on Ford Barn repaired and maintained the Pratt and Whitney R2800 engines for the Navy in late 40's or early 50's. I remember him talking about the Navy Carriers and working on those big engines. He talked about the R4360 engines also but I do not know if the Corsair was ever fitted with an engine that big. I suspect that they were used in the bombers.

In the 40 years that I knew him it was always interesting to hear about his exploits...

The Bearcat and Corsair as well as others used various versions of the R2800

There are 4 factors that end up with the left turning tendencies.

 

[Pete]

" but to reverse the cam would involve having the engine run in reverse"
Not necessarily. It has to do with rearranging the lobes on the cam.

 

[Patrick L.]

I was too poor during the 60s to even gain admission to airports (LOL) so flying was just a dream until the 90s. But I watched that show religiously without ever pay much attention to the landings or TOs. A few years later, I read Langeschwiesche's "Stick and Rudder" and just about everything else about flying (Including Terry and the Pirates, and his "Bamboo Bomber") But I had no techniques to perfect, so I didn't concentrate on on cockpit operations. Later in ground school, I was taught to kick right rudder as soon as the tail came off the ground. But we weren't dealing with these mega power plants. It was a different world!
Regards, Terry

Probably like you and many many others I learned in a J3. And, that book should be mandatory reading for anyone flying.

Many folks today once the wheels are off the ground use those pedals for nothing more than footrests. Whenever I end up with someone like that I stick them in the Cub and let them relearn just what those pedals are for.

How do we make this Model A related. Model As and old airplanes just go together and make for good pictures don't they.

 

[Pete]

The Bearcat and Corsair as well as others used various versions of the R2800

Somewhere on the internet and some time ago, I read that there were about 6 F4U Corsairs fitted with 4360's right at the end of the war. It was too late to do much with them so the project was dropped. It was said they were a handful and a half to handle.

I wonder if that is what they run in the Bearcats at the Reno air races.

 

[Not George]

Bill Kenz built what was called a Reverse Cam Model A Engine that included with a Miller OHV. The Cam (and everything else) turned the same direction, only it reversed the intake and exhaust ports to allow four ports for intake and only two for exhaust. It would have allowed for overlap of intake on cam timing, but I would think some restriction (and maybe heat issues) with only two exhaust ports.

This concept was also used with V-60 Ford Engines in Midget Race Cars in the 40s-50s.

Bill Kenz was much more innovative and smarter than me, and since the concept was also used in other applications, there must have been some benefit.

Another thought, if the engine rotation was reversed, the transmission would work fine, but you would have to the reverse the rear-end in the housing, or you would have one forward gear, and three reverse.

I believe he actually used a reversed cam Crager head, could be wrong.

 

[Juggler]

The Swiss pair of Marcel Moser (303) and Jan Eichenberger (307) brought their reverse ported G28 engined cars to Pendine Sands in 2014









My Swiss (German) isn't that good, but I think Jan said that the cams had been ground from blanks by Crane at vast expense. Marcel went 90.14 and Jan 90.54mph. I've got some video somewhere.

When I was looking into this I found a cam on the Billsbangers (Bill Todd in Oregon?) website which came in at a little under £500GBP at the time so I didn't pursue it.

Jim B or Pete grind me a cam?

Cheers

Juggs

 

[Glyn Farrell]

Thank you all who have posted --- very appreciated.
Reverse flow not reverse rotation is what I thought I asked.
Great to have the input re flathead oil pump, push up of distributor drive and original rotation but altered camshaft lobes. Disappointing re no coolant passages at the 'new' siamesed exhaust (previously intake) ports.
What about ceramic coating?
What else have I missed??
Glyn F

 

[Terry NJ]

As long as we're discussing camshafts, I once read of a experimental camshaft that ran 1/4 speed. I have always wondered if that was ever used. The idea is intriguing. Double lobes on the cam means 1/2 the wear per lobe,less internal drag because of the gear ratios, Longer dwell. The downside is Harder to gear, both drive gear and distributor/O.P., Harder to grind.
Terry

 

[leakers]

*******
How do we make this Model A related. Model As and old airplanes just go together and make for good pictures don't they.

Pietenpol

 

[scooder]

Glyn,
You did say about using a Windsor timing chain to reverse the cam rotation. This is not needed.

Listen to Pete, all you "need" internal parts wise is a cam ground from a blank (or billet if blanks arnt available) with the lobes ground to swap the intake and exhaust ports over. No backwards ignition or oil pump, as the cam turns the same way.

Others who've said about the engine running backwards, this was not mentioned by glyn, he only said cam, because he was talking about using a timing chain instead of the gears. The crank and cam gears, as there are one on each, the cam turns in the opposite direction of the crank. If it wad two gears connected with a chain, they both turn the same way. So replacing a pair of gears with a chain and two gears would make the cam turn in the opposite direction than it did, get it?

Worth doing? Have you got deep pockets? That's down to you.
Martin.

 

[Patrick L.]

The Bearcat and Corsair as well as others used various versions of the R2800

Somewhere on the internet and some time ago, I read that there were about 6 F4U Corsairs fitted with 4360's right at the end of the war. It was too late to do much with them so the project was dropped. It was said they were a handful and a half to handle.

I wonder if that is what they run in the Bearcats at the Reno air races.

I think all the Reno racers with round engines now use the 4360's including Rare Bear. The time I saw Rare Bear it had a 3350 but that some some ago. Love that airplane. Standing behind it at rotation is interesting.
It would make sense to stuff a 4360 in a Corsair when it became available, I didn't know they had done that. Ya, I can imagine they would be at least a hand full and a half. I would think they had to turn left, probably couldn't stop it.

 

[Patrick L.]

Pietenpol

Yep, there ya go !

 

[Jim Brierley]

To Not George. Bill Kenz's reverse Cragar is still running, saw it in Lincoln a few weeks ago at the Speedster Reunion. It still lives in CO.

 

[wensum]

If I read rightly, if you drive the camshaft by chain rather than gears, you get reverse rotation of the camshaft but not the motor?
Keith

 

[SteveB31]

You dont have to change the trans or rear end, as the crankshaft still tunrs the same way. You have to make a cam for it. Increased performence due to 4 intake ports and 2 exhaust ports. Ron Kelly has One running now. Bill Kenz made several back in the day,

 

[Floats]

Counter rotating aircraft engines are used to illiminate the critical engine and thereby improving single engine performance and safety in light twins. Piper used this system in the last of the Twin Comanches, all Senecas and Chieftains. The down going blade is more effective than the up going blade. GOOGLE asymmetric blade effect.
Regards
Chris

 

[flatheadman]

Confused. I understood that he was reversing cam rotation with chain drive instead of gear, not engine rotation.