Yet another timing question.
- Thread starter lucky_stripe_garage
- Start date
H. L. Chauvin
Well-known member
Hi Lucky,
In looking closely at:
A. "my issue isn't getting it timed correctly, I can do that easily now."; and,
B. "It's figuring out why does it keep coming out of time more and more after each drive."; and
C. "Jim recommended to add a washer under the cam screw since it seemed as though the cam screw was bottomed out. Did this and it's been running really well, HOWEVER, the more I drive it the farther down I have to have the spark lever and this is all on mostly flat roads."
C. Appears if your point gap remains the same, your distributor cam is "still" slipping and altering timing.
1. Do you have the recommended distributor cam lock washer in addition to your added washer?
2. Because so many inaccurate reproduction parts were sold early on, do you have another distributor cam, cam screw, and distributor cam shaft to experiment with beside the one you have?
In looking closely at:
A. "my issue isn't getting it timed correctly, I can do that easily now."; and,
B. "It's figuring out why does it keep coming out of time more and more after each drive."; and
C. "Jim recommended to add a washer under the cam screw since it seemed as though the cam screw was bottomed out. Did this and it's been running really well, HOWEVER, the more I drive it the farther down I have to have the spark lever and this is all on mostly flat roads."
C. Appears if your point gap remains the same, your distributor cam is "still" slipping and altering timing.
1. Do you have the recommended distributor cam lock washer in addition to your added washer?
2. Because so many inaccurate reproduction parts were sold early on, do you have another distributor cam, cam screw, and distributor cam shaft to experiment with beside the one you have?
H. L. Chauvin
Well-known member
Hi Lucky,
Your questions and progress reports are helping.
In addressing: "What should it be lubricated with?"
Years ago many rural Model A owners used to use plain Vaseline available at all General Merchandise & Drug Stores etc., axle grease, or any kind of grease lubricant one had locally available.
Some today use dielectric grease, plus any grease imaginable to provide heat and friction wear on a constantly turning distributor cam .... heat resistant grease to counter engine heat & manifold hear can help "maintain" lubrication and reduce friction.
Could be something as simple as the often reported points closing slowly with point block wear.
Your questions and progress reports are helping.
In addressing: "What should it be lubricated with?"
Years ago many rural Model A owners used to use plain Vaseline available at all General Merchandise & Drug Stores etc., axle grease, or any kind of grease lubricant one had locally available.
Some today use dielectric grease, plus any grease imaginable to provide heat and friction wear on a constantly turning distributor cam .... heat resistant grease to counter engine heat & manifold hear can help "maintain" lubrication and reduce friction.
Could be something as simple as the often reported points closing slowly with point block wear.
RonC
Well-known member
You can buy Lubricam from the suppliers or locally. Don't over do it you want none reaching the point contacts
Attachments
BILL WILLIAMSON
Well-known member
Hate to repeat, but check your point arm pivot post for being loose & WOBBLY, causing quick rubbing block wear!
Bill Repeater
Bill Repeater
Growley bear
Well-known member
All the above and: I know of a couple Model A's having a timing issue which turned out to be the distributor was slipping up over the top of the intermediate shaft causing the timing to retard slowly and for an unseen reason. As the distributor rotor was rocked back and forth the distributor shaft would drop back in place and all seemed well.
Turned out the aftermarket intermediate shaft was just a touch too short.
Turned out the aftermarket intermediate shaft was just a touch too short.
Tony Hillyard
Senior Member
By any chance where the cam or distributor shaft new repop replacements? Why I ask, before I used my 1928 standard roadster on the road I replaced everything that might cause me trouble. New points, new dist. shaft, new cam, new points plate, new points.
Then the trouble started.... the timing kept slipping. I double and treble checked everything to find the repop cam was slipping on the repop dist. shaft. I tried another washer under the cam screw (as suggested above). Still kept doing it.
In the end I used my engraver to roughen up the underside of the cam and the top seat of the dist. shaft. Plus a tiny drop of loctite on the cam screw thread.
Result, timing has not moved one tiny little bit. She runs beautifully.
Then the trouble started.... the timing kept slipping. I double and treble checked everything to find the repop cam was slipping on the repop dist. shaft. I tried another washer under the cam screw (as suggested above). Still kept doing it.
In the end I used my engraver to roughen up the underside of the cam and the top seat of the dist. shaft. Plus a tiny drop of loctite on the cam screw thread.
Result, timing has not moved one tiny little bit. She runs beautifully.
Growley bear
Well-known member
Do you have the special lock washer installed under the dist. cam retaining screw?
The parts I mentioned were reproduction parts. Another good reason to save some old parts even if worn out. They are good to use as comparison checks for new parts. Making the new Model A parts fit properly seems to be part of the process these days.
lucky_stripe_garage
Senior Member
I know that I haven't replaced the distributor cam or shaft. The receipts that I have from the previous owner do not say anything about replacing them either. I didn't use the new cam screw when I bought the rebuild kit because it's about a 1/4" longer and didn't put any pressure on the cam to lock it down.
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lucky_stripe_garage
Senior Member
I've got the thicker lock washer under the cam screw and then two of the thin washers under that. I went down and looked this morning and it seems like the points block is worn quite a bit. When I get out there on Friday I'll replace the points and try again. Haha.
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1. One thing to remember about replacing points is that the rubbing block wears rapidly for the first 200 -300 miles or so....
Point gap needs to be checked several times until the wear stabilises. Then the gap will remain the same for a much longer time.
As BLOCK WEARS timing is retarded ...
Cams that are rusty or not smooth will wear rubbing block at a rapid rate.
Do not assume just because you changed points that gap is now correct.
Everytime you change points the wear problem starts all over again!
2. THe original dist had a cam, a screw and TWO washers (one thin flat washer and a thin lockwasher) If either of the original washers is missing, the cam will be loose.
Note: SOME repro cams have one thicker lockwasher and no flat washer.
As mentioned in above post some of the repro screws are too long so they bottom out before the cam becomes tight.
If you have all original parts and install a long repro screw it may bottom out before cam is tight.
Some of the repro upper shafts are not drilled and a taped deep enough so screw bottoms out before cam is tight. In this case another thin washer OR shortening the screw should help.
Point gap needs to be checked several times until the wear stabilises. Then the gap will remain the same for a much longer time.
As BLOCK WEARS timing is retarded ...
Cams that are rusty or not smooth will wear rubbing block at a rapid rate.
Do not assume just because you changed points that gap is now correct.
Everytime you change points the wear problem starts all over again!
2. THe original dist had a cam, a screw and TWO washers (one thin flat washer and a thin lockwasher) If either of the original washers is missing, the cam will be loose.
Note: SOME repro cams have one thicker lockwasher and no flat washer.
As mentioned in above post some of the repro screws are too long so they bottom out before the cam becomes tight.
If you have all original parts and install a long repro screw it may bottom out before cam is tight.
Some of the repro upper shafts are not drilled and a taped deep enough so screw bottoms out before cam is tight. In this case another thin washer OR shortening the screw should help.
Last edited:
H. L. Chauvin
Well-known member
Hi Lucky,
You are indeed a wonderful Model A gentleman in replying and letting every Model A person know what you are finding.
So many come on here, ask a short question, obtain about 45 Free Model A suggestions, and ride off towards the sunset like "Tight-Wad-Scrooge" on his typical One-Way-Mule ...... where they alone benefit from the compassionate, Free Model A advice given.
Thanks!
You are indeed a wonderful Model A gentleman in replying and letting every Model A person know what you are finding.
So many come on here, ask a short question, obtain about 45 Free Model A suggestions, and ride off towards the sunset like "Tight-Wad-Scrooge" on his typical One-Way-Mule ...... where they alone benefit from the compassionate, Free Model A advice given.
Thanks!
Last edited:
Tom Wesenberg
Well-known member
One more thing to check is the upper distributor shaft. Some of the bad ones are made in two pieces. If you have one of the two piece shafts, your thrust ring might be slipping down on the shaft as you tighten the screw.
I just looked in last years Snyder's catalog, and the shaft they sell is the good one piece shaft. Be sure you have a good one piece shaft, and a quality cam, then slip the cam into position and look to see if the inside lip on the cam is sticking up higher than the end of the shaft. If it isn't, then you need better parts.
I just looked in last years Snyder's catalog, and the shaft they sell is the good one piece shaft. Be sure you have a good one piece shaft, and a quality cam, then slip the cam into position and look to see if the inside lip on the cam is sticking up higher than the end of the shaft. If it isn't, then you need better parts.
BILL WILLIAMSON
Well-known member
I've heard of cam screws with TOO much chrome plating & screw won't tighten down enough! I "think" the threads are some ODDBALL size???
Bill Oddball
Bill Oddball
Jim/GA
Well-known member
Cam Grease! You need Cam Grease!
The cam follower will wear down quickly if you do not put a small dab of cam grease on 2 high lobes of the cam when you install the new points, and then again every time you change the oil (or every 2 times -- Henry said 2 times).
As has been pointed out to you, the cam follower normally wears down quickly in the first 100 miles. You need to adjust the points back open again. As they wear in, the surface that rubs on the cam gets burnished hard, with grease applied, and the surface does not wear down quite as fast with time. So you don't have to keep adjusting every 100 miles forever. But do keep checking the point gap and putting a couple of small dabs of cam grease on the lobes now and then.
This can be a frustrating aspect of points ignition, why people decide to switch to electronic ignition. You set it once and forget it (until the module dies and leaves you sitting by the side of the road!) But once you get in the habit of opening the points back up when needed and putting a little grease on the cam, points ignition is very reliable.
BTW, when you open the point gap back up, your spark timing goes back to normal. And you will start getting a stronger spark again, with the correct point gap. Your engine will run well again.
I do not know why they can not make good points any more...
69 VW type III Fastback I changed points every 3000 miles ... never went back and checked gap. 100,000 miles.
73 Type III Square Back ... 100,000 same thing. I probably changed them before needed but it was just easier to just do it with the 3000 mile oil change and valve adjustment.
Changed points ... set dwell and go ...
Always used cam lube ...
69 VW type III Fastback I changed points every 3000 miles ... never went back and checked gap. 100,000 miles.
73 Type III Square Back ... 100,000 same thing. I probably changed them before needed but it was just easier to just do it with the 3000 mile oil change and valve adjustment.
Changed points ... set dwell and go ...
Always used cam lube ...
Charlville
Senior Member
When I install the new points and time my A and it's running well I make a note of the dwell and keep any eye on any change as a guide to points gap change
lucky_stripe_garage
Senior Member
Went up to a local Model A parts supplier and picked up some cam lube , went ahead and got a new cam and a few other parts while I was there. The point block was definitely worn down...a lot. I also checked the lobes on the cam and there was some noticeable differences between the old and new cam so I replaced that as well. Lubed everything up, reset the timing and it's running like it should again. Timing lever is roughly between 9 & 10 o'clock with a good idle and acceleration. Thank you to everyone for all of the advice.
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H. L. Chauvin
Well-known member
Hi lucky,
With your one (1) Model a question, (like with so many other similar Model A owner Forum questions), you were like a "Student" asking a question.
Afterwards, you have extracted from Model A owners many different "actual" past "timing" related experiences followed by their suggestions ...... in exposing these shared Moidel A experiences, you have now become the "teacher."
Again ....... thanks for returning like a "teacher" and kindly taking the time to share with other Model A owners the report of your successful follow up procedure!
With your one (1) Model a question, (like with so many other similar Model A owner Forum questions), you were like a "Student" asking a question.
Afterwards, you have extracted from Model A owners many different "actual" past "timing" related experiences followed by their suggestions ...... in exposing these shared Moidel A experiences, you have now become the "teacher."
Again ....... thanks for returning like a "teacher" and kindly taking the time to share with other Model A owners the report of your successful follow up procedure!
lucky_stripe_garage
Senior Member
Anytime. I can read the manuals all day long, but nothing beats experience. I will always try to give an update on any issues that I have so that it can possibly help someone else. I've only had my A for a little over a year so I know I have a lot to learn. That's why I spend so much time on this site.
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