Y Bock casting identification
- Thread starter Wiresmith
- Start date
dmsfrr
Well-known member
Nope. The letter prefix on a block or other part casting number only indicates the year version of when that part was first created & used. Individual part/casting numbers very often carried thru to following years unless there was a compelling need to create a 'new' version.
Example, a '59 EDB block could have a '55 EBV front motor mount style timing cover if it's in a vehicle that uses a front center motor mount.
Except for some: full sized car, truck and T-Bird specific parts (to accommodate differences between those vehicles) most Y-Block engine parts are interchangeable, to fit whatever vehicle you're going to put it in. The engine parts that most often are specific to a particular type of vehicle are; oil pans, exhaust manifolds, timing covers, damper pulleys, water pumps, valley pan, generator & power steering brackets, distributors, and maybe a few others that someone else will remember.
Spend some time looking at the info at this link,
it's good to be familiar with most of it if you're buying parts / working on a Y-block engine.
http://ford-y-block.com/technical.htm
What engine / vehicle are you working on? Other folks with info that goes with what you're doing will gladly give their 2 cents worth.
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Example, a '59 EDB block could have a '55 EBV front motor mount style timing cover if it's in a vehicle that uses a front center motor mount.
Except for some: full sized car, truck and T-Bird specific parts (to accommodate differences between those vehicles) most Y-Block engine parts are interchangeable, to fit whatever vehicle you're going to put it in. The engine parts that most often are specific to a particular type of vehicle are; oil pans, exhaust manifolds, timing covers, damper pulleys, water pumps, valley pan, generator & power steering brackets, distributors, and maybe a few others that someone else will remember.
Spend some time looking at the info at this link,
it's good to be familiar with most of it if you're buying parts / working on a Y-block engine.
http://ford-y-block.com/technical.htm
What engine / vehicle are you working on? Other folks with info that goes with what you're doing will gladly give their 2 cents worth.
.
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dmsfrr
Well-known member
Do you have part of a Y-block engine for it? (the EDB block you first asked about)
Is there some other engine in it now (223 straight 6?) or are you starting from scratch with an empty engine bay?
If it's empty, do you know what engine was in it last?
If you really want a Y-block go for it (I did) just carefully consider everything you'll have to deal with. It's very possible a rebuilt Y-block set-up could set you back almost double the price of a newer version drivetrain. Finding and rebuilding a Y-block engine from nothing could also take longer than something newer that there are several of in a local salvage yard, that might be usable almost as-is.
I'll suggest joining a local 50's-60's Ford car / truck club to get suggestions and contact info from as many folks as you can. Being part of a club can be very helpful with ideas, finding parts locally (esp. the large/heavy ones) and being able to borrow an extra set of hands when you need them. And remember that's a two-way street.
You might even get lucky and find someone looking for a new home for their Y-block drivetrain so they can do a later model engine swap.
And check out the online 50's Ford Truck forums too.
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Is there some other engine in it now (223 straight 6?) or are you starting from scratch with an empty engine bay?
If it's empty, do you know what engine was in it last?
If you really want a Y-block go for it (I did) just carefully consider everything you'll have to deal with. It's very possible a rebuilt Y-block set-up could set you back almost double the price of a newer version drivetrain. Finding and rebuilding a Y-block engine from nothing could also take longer than something newer that there are several of in a local salvage yard, that might be usable almost as-is.
I'll suggest joining a local 50's-60's Ford car / truck club to get suggestions and contact info from as many folks as you can. Being part of a club can be very helpful with ideas, finding parts locally (esp. the large/heavy ones) and being able to borrow an extra set of hands when you need them. And remember that's a two-way street.
You might even get lucky and find someone looking for a new home for their Y-block drivetrain so they can do a later model engine swap.
And check out the online 50's Ford Truck forums too.
.
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The truck had a 272/292 in it. It had a bad rear main oil leak, broken #2 main cap on the crank, oil pressure trouble. It had about 10psi cold and new oil pump didn't help. long story short the engine is out and for a short time it has an older 239 y block in it. Iv'e been in touch with a couple of professionals about the y block and have rough quotes from $4,800 on up to $7,200. The higher prices was discussed as a worst case scenario if I could only produce a block that wan't rotating. I feel good about the conversation. I want a Y Block with out question. I appreciate your insight and feedback.
dmsfrr
Well-known member
If you still have the first engine that was in it (?) plus the one that's in it now you should have most everything (& spares too) you'll need except a rebuildable 292 long block to put in in place of the 239. I'm assuming the transmission is the original one and swapping bolt-on parts off the 239 to a 'new' 292 should be pretty straight forward. There will be some 239 to 292 differences. For example, I think the 239/272 flywheel & clutch may be '10 inch', and the 292 is 10.5 or 11 inch.
If you're looking to keep the engine as original as possible (272 with a 2bbl carb) that can done, or you can get a bit more 'go' from it and still look 98% the same by using original 4bbl parts from the 'performance' Y-blocks of the late 50's.
See this link... http://ford-y-block.com/partstolookfor.htm
If we were 2500 miles closer I've got a rebuildable '56 292 short block & a pair of '56 heads you could have for a good price.
BUT.... I'm very sure you can find something similar in your neck of the woods. I found these in under a week of just asking around. Who knows, you might even stumble across a good 312.
The prices you mentioned above, is that a turn-key & drive away price?
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If you're looking to keep the engine as original as possible (272 with a 2bbl carb) that can done, or you can get a bit more 'go' from it and still look 98% the same by using original 4bbl parts from the 'performance' Y-blocks of the late 50's.
See this link... http://ford-y-block.com/partstolookfor.htm
If we were 2500 miles closer I've got a rebuildable '56 292 short block & a pair of '56 heads you could have for a good price.
BUT.... I'm very sure you can find something similar in your neck of the woods. I found these in under a week of just asking around. Who knows, you might even stumble across a good 312.
The prices you mentioned above, is that a turn-key & drive away price?
.
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I may be looking for the heads. I pulled a potential donor set this afternoon COTE. They appear to have a small intake valve???I'm not sure if they can be saved. It looks like a lot of rust in the combustion chamber(s). I pulled a different set that look like they're BT9E and ECL all in about the similar condition. I have one last chance and that is two heads that I'd pulled and put on an older 239 (rookie). It gave me the ability to drive it to a couple of shows last year, only about 5 miles. I'd been told those heads had been rebuilt about 2 years ago and have only seen limited use (about 200 miles) I now know that the compression ratio must be way off. I have a 272 block that had been bores to 292. It looks like during reassemble the number two main cap broke and went unnoticed????? It is an EBU cap. I have a non-rotating block that appears to have the pistons stuck in the bores. This seized block has EBU caps. I don't know if the cap could be interchanged and line honed?? Lastly I have an EBD 292 that is rotating, I'm not sure of the condition of the bores, I'll need a professional opinion on that. This is me hope to get an engine together from these.
One last note the bored 272 block was in the truck running. I had to install a new clutch and discovered the rear main leaking a lot. I dropped the oil pan to get to the seal and discovered that the timing chain was very loose (1"++). At this point I decided to pull the engine to address a couple of oil leaks. When we got the engine on the stand is when the #2 main cap was discovered. The engine ran well, no noise or vibration. The man I bought the truck from (85 years old) told me that the engine had mismatched heads and had two "rebuilt" and installed (he gave me the old heads and parts).
I've had a tough time getting to talk with any "Ford" guy's. I'm seemingly alone in Maine. I appreciate your input and time.
Thanks,
Mike
One last note the bored 272 block was in the truck running. I had to install a new clutch and discovered the rear main leaking a lot. I dropped the oil pan to get to the seal and discovered that the timing chain was very loose (1"++). At this point I decided to pull the engine to address a couple of oil leaks. When we got the engine on the stand is when the #2 main cap was discovered. The engine ran well, no noise or vibration. The man I bought the truck from (85 years old) told me that the engine had mismatched heads and had two "rebuilt" and installed (he gave me the old heads and parts).
I've had a tough time getting to talk with any "Ford" guy's. I'm seemingly alone in Maine. I appreciate your input and time.
Thanks,
Mike
The $5000.00 range is for a fresh rebuild. new bearings, push rods, piston/rings, etc…. They would "run in" the engine and re-adjust the valve train and check appropriate torque values, etc…. I't may end up about $500.00 more if I don't have decent core's send. This would be the cheaper route. It is however on the west coast and I wouldn't be able to verify any work first hand.
The higher end price is a shop in New England that I have several first and reviews of. The shop is highly recommended, I've had two conversations with them and I think it might be the safer route.
One piece that I haven't located in the last two years is a 3sp bell housing for the 292. I have one currently with a three speed on the column. I like the originality of it. The bell housing has had major damage repairs, I'm not sure of its long term survival. It looks as though the entire "ear" had been broken clean off. The repair looks professional, I may take that to the machine shop as well. The advertise "metal stitching" as a repair option for some items?????
The higher end price is a shop in New England that I have several first and reviews of. The shop is highly recommended, I've had two conversations with them and I think it might be the safer route.
One piece that I haven't located in the last two years is a 3sp bell housing for the 292. I have one currently with a three speed on the column. I like the originality of it. The bell housing has had major damage repairs, I'm not sure of its long term survival. It looks as though the entire "ear" had been broken clean off. The repair looks professional, I may take that to the machine shop as well. The advertise "metal stitching" as a repair option for some items?????
dmsfrr
Well-known member
It sounds like you have a fair number of blocks & heads to choose between already.
What are your driving plans for the truck? Knowing this may help you make some of the parts and money decisions. Example: if you won't be driving it very much the cyl. bore may be 'close enough' to just hone & re-ring, saving the cost of boring the block and a new set of piston$. If you'll be using it a lot that makes boring & new pistons a more reasonable expense.
The machine shop you use will want to know if you want hardened valve seats installed in the heads, for running unleaded fuel. It's a good idea but kind of pricey. If you won't be driving the truck much you can probably get by with some sort of lead additive in the fuel.
The price difference for the machine work to rebuild a 130hp 1-bbl 239 and a 245hp 4bbl 312 isn't nearly as much as you'd think. As far as I'm concerned you might as well get a few more hp for your rebuild money. The different displacement blocks are effectively interchangeable. I'd at least go with the bigger/better pieces you've already got and maybe a couple OEM part upgrades (heads, 4bbl, ?) instead of worrying about finding another engine block that may not be any better than something you already have.
As a first step it could be worthwhile to pay a few bucks to a machine shop near you to look over what you have and let you know if it's within rebuild specs or too far gone.... before you go to the trouble of taking too many of the wrong parts to a rebuild shop in a neighboring state.
Have them look at the EDB block you have, with the oil pan & heads off, and any other loose blocks and pairs of heads you have. (the heads can become right & left handed over time due to corrosion in the water passages to the intake manif. and placement of the water temp sensor fitting)
You can have the freeze-plugs pulled to check the water passages around the cylinders for internal rust buildup. If that can't be cleaned out the engine will run hot. Have the parts double checked for obvious cracks too. All this will give you a better idea of which good/repairable parts you have to work with.
I'll agree it's easier to be more comfortable with a semi-local machine shop than one on the other coast. Their price may be a bit high, or about right, depending on how complete the engine is you get back. That being said, it can pay to shop around and compare what you get for your money from other places. If nothing else, as you talk with different shops you'll become more informed about what you need and what it costs.
Also ask about swapping out the broken main bearing cap and align honing, I suspect that's an ok thing to do, but since that block was already bored from 272 to 292 they may(?) say it's too far gone. Something about 'bored past the original hardened cylinder wall surface' or 'cyl. walls too thin'.
The seized block you have, what is that one? The fact that it's seized isn't really a serious issue for rebuilding unless something is trashed past the max. spec. for rebuilding. (usually cyl. bore, thrown rod, cracks or other physical damage to the block) because the rest of the parts are getting replaced or reconditioned anyway.
If you get a good enough price on the rebuilding, from a reputable place, it may cover the shipping and you'll still have saved the difference.
Here's another really good resource for you, send Tim an email. http://yblockguy.com/
He's into old Ford trucks. Ask him about engine rebuilders, hopefully he knows of someone in your neck of the woods, and the bell housing you need.
Also, bell housings turn up on ebay pretty often, just make sure it fits your truck first. Having the same casting number is a good bet, but there may be similar ones that will work, ask Tim.
This link http://ford-y-block.com/cylinderheadchart.htm has the valve and combustion chamber size & compression ratios listed by casting number / year.
Depending on what they are, the heads you swapped onto the 239 may be a good option, especially if they match and don't need any work.
Yes the C0TE heads have smaller intake valves but they are 'posted' heads, and they can safely have the surface milled a touch more than the '56 & earlier 'non-posted' heads. If you are staying with a 2bbl carb the smaller intake valve size isn't much of a concern. The (two?) B9TE heads you have do use larger intake valves and they are 'posted' as well. (but not the ECL's)
It's always best to have matching casting numbers on the heads you use.
If you might want to go with a 4bbl intake setup in the future you can use the B9TE's you already have (milled slightly if you want or have to), and '57 or newer exhaust manifolds. They'll flow better than earlier ones.
http://www.y-block.info/casting/exhaust.html (scroll down to the 2nd chart, 'trucks')
Cast iron can be welded but it has to be done correctly or the edges of the repair will be too brittle and fail again. I've been told that using a gas torch for the welding works well as it spreads the heat out over a larger surface, not creating an 'edge' to the repaired area. There may be other welding methods that work as well, everyone has their own opinion. If it's been used for any length of time and not broken again you may be ok, but keeping an eye out for a replacement part is a good idea too.
.
What are your driving plans for the truck? Knowing this may help you make some of the parts and money decisions. Example: if you won't be driving it very much the cyl. bore may be 'close enough' to just hone & re-ring, saving the cost of boring the block and a new set of piston$. If you'll be using it a lot that makes boring & new pistons a more reasonable expense.
The machine shop you use will want to know if you want hardened valve seats installed in the heads, for running unleaded fuel. It's a good idea but kind of pricey. If you won't be driving the truck much you can probably get by with some sort of lead additive in the fuel.
The price difference for the machine work to rebuild a 130hp 1-bbl 239 and a 245hp 4bbl 312 isn't nearly as much as you'd think. As far as I'm concerned you might as well get a few more hp for your rebuild money. The different displacement blocks are effectively interchangeable. I'd at least go with the bigger/better pieces you've already got and maybe a couple OEM part upgrades (heads, 4bbl, ?) instead of worrying about finding another engine block that may not be any better than something you already have.
As a first step it could be worthwhile to pay a few bucks to a machine shop near you to look over what you have and let you know if it's within rebuild specs or too far gone.... before you go to the trouble of taking too many of the wrong parts to a rebuild shop in a neighboring state.
Have them look at the EDB block you have, with the oil pan & heads off, and any other loose blocks and pairs of heads you have. (the heads can become right & left handed over time due to corrosion in the water passages to the intake manif. and placement of the water temp sensor fitting)
You can have the freeze-plugs pulled to check the water passages around the cylinders for internal rust buildup. If that can't be cleaned out the engine will run hot. Have the parts double checked for obvious cracks too. All this will give you a better idea of which good/repairable parts you have to work with.
I'll agree it's easier to be more comfortable with a semi-local machine shop than one on the other coast. Their price may be a bit high, or about right, depending on how complete the engine is you get back. That being said, it can pay to shop around and compare what you get for your money from other places. If nothing else, as you talk with different shops you'll become more informed about what you need and what it costs.
Also ask about swapping out the broken main bearing cap and align honing, I suspect that's an ok thing to do, but since that block was already bored from 272 to 292 they may(?) say it's too far gone. Something about 'bored past the original hardened cylinder wall surface' or 'cyl. walls too thin'.
The seized block you have, what is that one? The fact that it's seized isn't really a serious issue for rebuilding unless something is trashed past the max. spec. for rebuilding. (usually cyl. bore, thrown rod, cracks or other physical damage to the block) because the rest of the parts are getting replaced or reconditioned anyway.
If you get a good enough price on the rebuilding, from a reputable place, it may cover the shipping and you'll still have saved the difference.
Here's another really good resource for you, send Tim an email. http://yblockguy.com/
He's into old Ford trucks. Ask him about engine rebuilders, hopefully he knows of someone in your neck of the woods, and the bell housing you need.
Also, bell housings turn up on ebay pretty often, just make sure it fits your truck first. Having the same casting number is a good bet, but there may be similar ones that will work, ask Tim.
This link http://ford-y-block.com/cylinderheadchart.htm has the valve and combustion chamber size & compression ratios listed by casting number / year.
Depending on what they are, the heads you swapped onto the 239 may be a good option, especially if they match and don't need any work.
Yes the C0TE heads have smaller intake valves but they are 'posted' heads, and they can safely have the surface milled a touch more than the '56 & earlier 'non-posted' heads. If you are staying with a 2bbl carb the smaller intake valve size isn't much of a concern. The (two?) B9TE heads you have do use larger intake valves and they are 'posted' as well. (but not the ECL's)
It's always best to have matching casting numbers on the heads you use.
If you might want to go with a 4bbl intake setup in the future you can use the B9TE's you already have (milled slightly if you want or have to), and '57 or newer exhaust manifolds. They'll flow better than earlier ones.
http://www.y-block.info/casting/exhaust.html (scroll down to the 2nd chart, 'trucks')
Cast iron can be welded but it has to be done correctly or the edges of the repair will be too brittle and fail again. I've been told that using a gas torch for the welding works well as it spreads the heat out over a larger surface, not creating an 'edge' to the repaired area. There may be other welding methods that work as well, everyone has their own opinion. If it's been used for any length of time and not broken again you may be ok, but keeping an eye out for a replacement part is a good idea too.
.
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First, thanks for the input. I've watched Ebay and Craiglist religiously as well as talked to any "locals" that I can corner, I've not seen a three speed bell housing in my neighborhood. I can locate any number of four speed ones.
I do have two C0TE heads, I think only one BT9E and one ECL. If I have that right those where on one block (currently seized). I've tapped each piston lightly with a block and dead blow hammer as well as regular soaking with PB Blaster oil. I'll try again soon. That block had enough water in it and frozen that at some point it cause the oil pan to expand so much I had trouble getting to the pan bolts. I drained about four gallons of mostly water with some oil. Surprisingly no apparent rust in the pan, crank, caps or any where. I'd really like to use one of those blocks, which are both 292's. The machine shop has a great set up. They will bake, blast, magna-flux, and repair any damaged areas. I called twenty six shops starting close by and working my way outward, finally the number 26 shop gave me the number of a shop about an hour away that would machine my flywheel. I've had trouble getting any local machine shop to even entertain engine work.
The two "good" heads I have (I was told) had been rebuilt with hardened seats. If this is true they are about 2.5-3 years old and about 400 miles of service. I'll have to remove them from the existing block to verify/locate the casting numbers. I'd like to see about the C0TE, I'm concerned about the amount of corrosion in the combustion chamber. It appears to be surface rust……I suppose the best case scenario would be to discover I already have those heads on the truck and rebuilt with hardened seats and can move on. I doubt I'm that lucky.
The process that the machine shop uses to repair damaged casting is "metal stitching". They have several posts on the site from past customers that are pleased with the repair. By the looks of comments and reviews people travel from quite a distance for this shop.
As far the intended use……I'd like to be able to drive the truck to local shows, around New England for a day trip or two. I'd like to make sure I do this right the first time, even if it costs more up front. I hope to pass this truck on to my nephews and be something that will see occasional use for years to come. The rest of the truck is in good shape.
I did locate a good distributor, new water pump, oil pump, timing set, carb and an alternator (generator replica). I will continue to look for a new/rebuilt starter, fuel pump, radiator and……..I'm not sure if I can locate the equipment or if its available to rebuild the fuel pump or starter???
Thanks again,
I do have two C0TE heads, I think only one BT9E and one ECL. If I have that right those where on one block (currently seized). I've tapped each piston lightly with a block and dead blow hammer as well as regular soaking with PB Blaster oil. I'll try again soon. That block had enough water in it and frozen that at some point it cause the oil pan to expand so much I had trouble getting to the pan bolts. I drained about four gallons of mostly water with some oil. Surprisingly no apparent rust in the pan, crank, caps or any where. I'd really like to use one of those blocks, which are both 292's. The machine shop has a great set up. They will bake, blast, magna-flux, and repair any damaged areas. I called twenty six shops starting close by and working my way outward, finally the number 26 shop gave me the number of a shop about an hour away that would machine my flywheel. I've had trouble getting any local machine shop to even entertain engine work.
The two "good" heads I have (I was told) had been rebuilt with hardened seats. If this is true they are about 2.5-3 years old and about 400 miles of service. I'll have to remove them from the existing block to verify/locate the casting numbers. I'd like to see about the C0TE, I'm concerned about the amount of corrosion in the combustion chamber. It appears to be surface rust……I suppose the best case scenario would be to discover I already have those heads on the truck and rebuilt with hardened seats and can move on. I doubt I'm that lucky.
The process that the machine shop uses to repair damaged casting is "metal stitching". They have several posts on the site from past customers that are pleased with the repair. By the looks of comments and reviews people travel from quite a distance for this shop.
As far the intended use……I'd like to be able to drive the truck to local shows, around New England for a day trip or two. I'd like to make sure I do this right the first time, even if it costs more up front. I hope to pass this truck on to my nephews and be something that will see occasional use for years to come. The rest of the truck is in good shape.
I did locate a good distributor, new water pump, oil pump, timing set, carb and an alternator (generator replica). I will continue to look for a new/rebuilt starter, fuel pump, radiator and……..I'm not sure if I can locate the equipment or if its available to rebuild the fuel pump or starter???
Thanks again,
dmsfrr
Well-known member
With that much ice in it definitely double check for cracks in that block.
Either of the 292 blocks sound like a good possibility, and the recently done heads too.
Distributor & Carb - If Ford did the same with the trucks as on their cars, the 55's and 56's each used a one year only dist/carb setup. '55 = single vac line, '56 = double vac lines. The vacuum ports on the carb and the advance diaphragms on the dist are year specific and they don't interchange.
'57 and newer carbs & distributors will work with each other.
Starter - Yes they're old but they're still common enough that a starter/alternator shop can probably provide parts or fix the one you have for much less than the price of a new one.
Fuel pump - The only rebuild kits I've seen cost more than the price of a new/replacement pump.
Timing chain set & oil pump - If a shop assembles your engine they'll probably decline to use yours since they won't want to warranty an engine built with parts they didn't provide, and those are pretty crucial to the well-being of the engine.
It sure seems like you're on the right track so far. Good luck!
.
Either of the 292 blocks sound like a good possibility, and the recently done heads too.
Distributor & Carb - If Ford did the same with the trucks as on their cars, the 55's and 56's each used a one year only dist/carb setup. '55 = single vac line, '56 = double vac lines. The vacuum ports on the carb and the advance diaphragms on the dist are year specific and they don't interchange.
'57 and newer carbs & distributors will work with each other.
Starter - Yes they're old but they're still common enough that a starter/alternator shop can probably provide parts or fix the one you have for much less than the price of a new one.
Fuel pump - The only rebuild kits I've seen cost more than the price of a new/replacement pump.
Timing chain set & oil pump - If a shop assembles your engine they'll probably decline to use yours since they won't want to warranty an engine built with parts they didn't provide, and those are pretty crucial to the well-being of the engine.
It sure seems like you're on the right track so far. Good luck!
.
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Lancer
Senior Member
I'll second that with regard to Tim McMaster "The Y-Block Guy"
He's built one for my '62 Slick, which I just received a week ago. Had a hand in the build of the Y in my '57 Ford Wagon, and is also building the Y for my Gasser, a 12:1 motor. I would highly recommend him for anything. He does build and ship motors so its worth the effort to contact him. His site is an excellent resource as well.
He's built one for my '62 Slick, which I just received a week ago. Had a hand in the build of the Y in my '57 Ford Wagon, and is also building the Y for my Gasser, a 12:1 motor. I would highly recommend him for anything. He does build and ship motors so its worth the effort to contact him. His site is an excellent resource as well.
