Widow Maker Rims

truckdog62563 said:
There are two of the 17.5s listed. One you don't want because it is Chevy with hub cap clips. Won't work for your caps, and likely has too small a center hole to clear your rear hub. The second wheel is hard to see whether it has clips or the raised nubs molded into the center disc like you need. You'd have to quiz the seller. Stu
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Looking to close on the set of 4 you linked me to here. Waiting on my spare to be installed...Would look better if I had all four matching. Hope to post pics with those wheels from ebay on the truck..Thanks again..
 

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expavr said:
Stu. The reworked wheels on my 40 tonner are 16" with the deep cleevage for mounting a radial tire and they clear the 14" drums on my tonner by a little over a 1/4" at the lip on the drum edge. Whats the difference between the later brake drums and the 14" drums on my 40? The trick in setting up the hybrid wheel is to get the rim width and backset worked out. There's not as much airflow around the drum the way my wheels are setup but being in the back that isn't a real problem. The 16" rims might look a little funny on an F3, but at least he could keep the same bolt pattern and hubcap. The other thing to evaluate is using an OEM 17" rim and machining out the center section would there be enough meat left to weld the OEM center to a modern radial rim? On mine there is a solid weld around the circumference of the center section holding it to the radial rim. If not a solid weld that could be an issue from a safety point of view.
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Interesting. I suspect the custom 16s fit your drums because of the drop center design of the new rims. We've had isolated comments made that guys have found salvage yard 16s that will fit the 14" drums, but none of the comments contained exact information to allow us to know what donor truck to focus on. It makes sense, though, that your custom wheels could be spaced to allow use of your stock centers. Good to know.

Building custom wheels was the last of Brien's available alternatives, but I didn't get that far with him. It is the highest cost alternative, and one that guys normally don't embrace if used wheels can be found. But, from an originality standpoint, the below wheel can't be beat. It is one of a custom set made by Stockton Wheel for a man named Mike Goldsby using his stock 17" widow maker centers. Because the stock 17s (as I pictured above) have the centers riveted to the "semi drop center" of the widow maker rims, it works out that the center disc fits perfectly into a new tubeless 17" drop center rim. This allows use of stock 7.50 x 17" bias ply tires since they can be mounted on the drop center rims the same as any other modern tires. This is the only example I've heard of where somebody has gone to this extent to retain a pure original appearance. Stu

MikeGoldsbysStocktonRemountof17WMs.jpg
 
truckdog62563 said:
Interesting. I suspect the custom 16s fit your drums because of the drop center design of the new rims. We've had isolated comments made that guys have found salvage yard 16s that will fit the 14" drums, but none of the comments contained exact information to allow us to know what donor truck to focus on. It makes sense, though, that your custom wheels could be spaced to allow use of your stock centers. Good to know.

Building custom wheels was the last of Brien's available alternatives, but I didn't get that far with him. It is the highest cost alternative, and one that guys normally don't embrace if used wheels can be found. But, from an originality standpoint, the below wheel can't be beat. It is one of a custom set made by Stockton Wheel for a man named Mike Goldsby using his stock 17" widow maker centers. Because the stock 17s (as I pictured above) have the centers riveted to the "semi drop center" of the widow maker rims, it works out that the center disc fits perfectly into a new tubeless 17" drop center rim. This allows use of stock 7.50 x 17" bias ply tires since they can be mounted on the drop center rims the same as any other modern tires. This is the only example I've heard of where somebody has gone to this extent to retain a pure original appearance. Stu

MikeGoldsbysStocktonRemountof17WMs.jpg
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WOW You guys are waaay too technical for me. A good thing... I am only a trucking broker who has had the pleasure to own everything from a 1949 Volkswagen in 1965 to a 1959 Hillman Husky, in 1968, to a 1960 Chevy Apache Window van, in 1969 to my current 1951 F-3... I gave my wife the 67 MG B for her birthday 20 years ago...Ironically it runs fine but I have to keep up on it, just like the old Triumph motorcycles that rattled apart every 500 miles..I had to carry a tool kit with me..I carry a extensive tool array in the MG boot....

I can do much of my own mechaical work on the F-3 which is why I bought it. I can remove the hood(bonnet in Lie-mee terms) and sit there to service the entire engine parts. Ok... I have to bend over the fenders to pull the valves, but hey, what the hell. Where else can you remove the head by sitting on the fender and cranking off the headbolts?

I can hold my own with regard to the motors, the bodys, and the styles, but you fellas are engineers... I mean I have a crank, valves, psitons, and other parts for the flathead V-8 on my shelves, but you guys are a wealth of information. I can only put information on one shelf..Thanks again..

I read about Stockton. It seems they went belly up and then came back after some bad reviews on their work. I will await on those four 19.5's on ebay...
 

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You've clearly done your homework. Stockton is a very old company that was the main player in the custom wheel business for many years, but over the past few had earned itself a dodgy reputation. Then the owner died under sad circumstances and the company closed. It has now reopened under new ownership. My willingness to again recommend them has been helped by what I see in that picture of Mike Goldsby's wheel.

I'm glad you were able to contact the seller in Florida about his 19.5s. Hope it works out for both of you. If not, your other three alternatives are spelled out and you should be in good shape. Later. Stu
 
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I can confirm that Stockton wheel has improved.
Out of 4 attempts in my life to deal with them I recently had success …. the previous owner was a jackass.
 
The myth about truck split rims being "widow makers" is another of those terms like "40 Ford Opera Coupe" which Ford never made.. These kind of myth terms were most likely coined by a news paper writer. or the likes thereof...
I have operated trucks of all sizes, from 1/2 ton to over 50k with split rims for several million of miles, never had a split rim blow apart.. Ive blown tires, but the rims stayed together.
The need for split type rims came about because as the tonnage/weight that trucks could carry increased, the construction of the tire sidewall had to be made heavier.. Tires above six ply were very difficult to force over the rim edge without doing damage to the bead.. Split rims eliminated the bead damage.. With the advent of tubeless radial tires with softer side walls the need for split rims was a thing of the past..
The one big exception to the elimination of split rims is heavy equipment that is used off road.. Many farm trucks still use split rims because the soft sidewall on radials are easy to puncher with rocks, etc..
I noted in the pix posted by "truckdog" that a very common mistake was made in the selection of the wheel.. There is a space between the rim and the axle hub.. The rim is not correct for the hub/axle,, A heavy duty rim is supposed to fit the axle hub, thereby carrying the weight on the hub, not the lug bolts..
The rim shown is most likely a GM wheel in lieu of a Ford rim.. GM eight lug wheels will fit a Ford, Ford will not fit a GM because of the differences in the axle hub size...
The improper fitment of wheels to axle hubs is a very common mistake that is all to common on after market wheels.. The tire/wheel dealers like to think that one size fits all.. I have seen far to many aluminum/designer wheels come off of trucks, etc., because the lug bolts broke from to much weight on them..
 
blucar said:
I noted in the pix posted by "truckdog" that a very common mistake was made in the selection of the wheel.. There is a space between the rim and the axle hub.. The rim is not correct for the hub/axle,, A heavy duty rim is supposed to fit the axle hub, thereby carrying the weight on the hub, not the lug bolts..
The rim shown is most likely a GM wheel in lieu of a Ford rim.. GM eight lug wheels will fit a Ford, Ford will not fit a GM because of the differences in the axle hub size...
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No sir, the mistake is yours. The picture posted is of the "widow maker" Budd #49380, Ford #7RY 1007B, that came stock on every 1948 to 1952 F-3, and was optional on F-250s through 1966.

I will agree with your statement that not all multi-part rims are "split rims" or "widow makers". The type that is commonly called "lock ring" style can still be safely serviced at most big truck or ag type shops, and as you said many are still in production for off-road and OTR applications. The widow maker "RH-5°" was subject of an Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) recall effort during the 1970s, which eventually failed in favor of stronger OSHA safety guidelines for their handling. The wheel manufacturers did agree to cease their production, however, which was the sole success of the recall effort. The last to list them was Kelsey-Hayes in 1976. That doesn't do a lot, though, to help those of us in the old truck hobby who today continue to be exposed to these wheels. It is today primarily the service industry and trail lawyers who have made these wheels a pariah. Stu
 
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truckdog62563 said:
You've clearly done your homework. Stockton is a very old company that was the main player in the custom wheel business for many years, but over the past few had earned itself a dodgy reputation. Then the owner died under sad circumstances and the company closed. It has now reopened under new ownership. My willingness to again recommend them has been helped by what I see in that picture of Mike Goldsby's wheel.

I'm glad you were able to contact the seller in Florida about his 19.5s. Hope it works out for both of you. If not, your other three alternatives are spelled out and you should be in good shape. Later. Stu
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I see three 16.5 wheels here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/321002918850

If I don't hear from the guy in Fla would these do? Of course it would put me in a position to find another 16.5, but over time I guess I could find one...Thanks again Stu...
 
No, stay away from 16.5s. Too short. Remember that I mentioned that the 8-17.5s would be close to the same as the 7.50 x 16s that came on F-2s, both about 32". The 16.5s will iirc be a couple inches shorter than that in widths that you could use. The 16.5s came into wide use in the 1980s when short and wide tires came into vogue. Your truck was designed for tall and narrow "pizza cutter" type tires. Stu
 
truckdog62563 said:
No, stay away from 16.5s. Too short. Remember that I mentioned that the 8-17.5s would be close to the same as the 7.50 x 16s that came on F-2s, both about 32". The 16.5s will iirc be a couple inches shorter than that in widths that you could use. The 16.5s came into wide use in the 1980s when short and wide tires came into vogue. Your truck was designed for tall and narrow "pizza cutter" type tires. Stu
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10-4 Once again thanks Hoping the Fla guy will respond...Offered him full price..asked for free shipping...I am hoping for a counter offer from him since they failed to sell full price on the first go around..

I have to mention one thing. The pic I supplied with the wheel off the F-3, well that wheel was over at a tire guy's place for repair. The fella was having a dreadful time trying to split the rim. I told my restorer to ask him to forget it since if he was having such a difficult time. I didn't want him to hurt himself.

Do you think someone who is having such a diffcult time splitting the rim should just stay away from the task for safety sake? Or could it merely be the rim hasn't been split in such a long time, it was frozen together by father time and anyone, even the most experienced fellow, would have a hard go of it?
 
brien said:
Do you think someone who is having such a diffcult time splitting the rim should just stay away from the task for safety sake? Or could it merely be the rim hasn't been split in such a long time, it was frozen together by father time and anyone, even the most experienced fellow, would have a hard go of it?
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As long as there is no air in the tire there's no safety hazard while pulling one apart. Probably 60 years of inertia and rust are not wanting to give up their grip on the thing. In such cases I use a sawzall and cut the old tires off. The recycler I use doesn't care if the tires are in one piece or three. Then I'd send the wheels to China so they can come back as trash can lids. Stu
 
truckdog62563 said:
As long as there is no air in the tire there's no safety hazard while pulling one apart. Probably 60 years of inertia and rust are not wanting to give up their grip on the thing. In such cases I use a sawzall and cut the old tires off. The recycler I use doesn't care if the tires are in one piece or three. Then I'd send the wheels to China so they can come back as trash can lids. Stu
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LOL Good one, Stu, but I would rather keep the steel here at home. I should do better to find a domestic use for the junk.. This American government already owes the Chinese too much money, and I don't want to contribute to that debt. I would rather find a use for it in some kind of welded art project rather than allow our government more opportunity to put us all deeper in debt..

Perhaps I could use the rim as a face to depict a politician who spends our children's future over to the foreign powers who may never have to fire a shot to take over this country. Widowmakers indeed....:eek:

I just stumbled across these 6 in Maine:

http://maine.craigslist.org/pts/3578851008.html
 
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I suspect I share your position on the "Right Course"/"Wrong Course" polling question. Unfortunately I live in Illinois where there are six dead people voting in the city of Chicago that cancel out mine and my wife's votes. I've avoided news broadcasts since November for mental health reasons.

Those CL wheels are DRW and useless to you. Stu
 
truckdog62563 said:
I suspect I share your position on the "Right Course"/"Wrong Course" polling question. Unfortunately I live in Illinois where there are six dead people voting in the city of Chicago that cancel out mine and my wife's votes. I've avoided news broadcasts since November for mental health reasons.

Those CL wheels are DRW and useless to you. Stu
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I feel for you Stu..Perhaps Jesse Jackson Jr has a set of wheel hanging around he might have bought with his campaign money. I'll write him down in Joliet..Here's hoping he and Blago become roommates!
 
OK, I'll stand corrected by "truckdog" in my comment about the improper fit of the wheel to hub as shown in his pix..
I do agree with his comments about the more common garden variety of split rims, i.e. the "split ring" which secured the outer portion of the rim.. The more common type found on light trucks/pickup made by Firestone, Budd and/or Kelsy-Hayes...
I ran this type of wheel on the majority of my F100/350's through the early '80's, I then switched to radial tubeless because they were safer, less flat tires from tube failures...
We also switched our large trucks to tubeless radial tires in the mid '80's, same reason..
 
A foot note to my earlier comment about the importance of the wheel making contact with the axle hub for adequate weight transfer;
Throughout the years I have found it to be very interesting in the difference of opinions by manufactures and the common public, as to the importance of proper weight distribution on wheel lugs/axle hubs..
GM has through out the years held fast to six lugs on HD 1/2 tons/4 wheel drive, the majority of HD axle hubs on a GM vehicle will have a shoulder that makes contact with the wheel, even on half ton light trucks.. Ford on the other hand has not placed as much importance on weight transfer to the axle hub, relying on five lugs to carry the weight.. Of course since the late '80's, many of the 3/4- 1 ton vehicles no longer have the tried and true floating axle hubs..
Many years ago I had an employee that had a '64 Ford F250 which he put a big camper on.. The truck was a "Plain Jane" unit which was not intended to be an RV type vehicle.. In 1971 he bought a new Chevy, since he had fitted his Ford with larger new tires, he opted to put the Ford wheels on his GM truck.. No problem.. except the GM wheels would not fit the Ford.. The axle hub was to large.. Not a problem he picked up some used Ford tires/wheels so he could sell the Ford.
When I found out what my employee had done I told him he was looking for trouble with Ford rims on his GM truck... He thought I was nuts, he checked with his tire dealer, who also thought I was nuts..
Fast forward a year and a half later, my employee is returning from a vacation trip to Oregon... Bam!! all hell breaks loose, a rear wheel sheared the lug nuts, the wheel/tire tears up the side of the truck making it's exit and the unit rolls with three kids bouncing around inside of the camper.. Fortunately the injuries were minor..
Needless to say my point had been made, all of the employees that had RV's took a hard look at the tires/wheels on their units...
 
As a youngster I worked at a Texaco Station and we changed many truck tires. With the split rims we always lowered the H frame hoist on top of the wheel in case it would blow out as it was being inflated. I have seen the modern cages they use today. Whatever procedure you use, make it safe..
 
Shade
I too have used the hoist frame for safety, as well as a welded steel frame.
The rim that failed on me was being held with a heavy cross shaped bar with an inch and half acme threaded shaft thru it and secured with a nut.
The shaft broke when the ring popped out. I ended up with a knot on my forehead, and
both eyes sandblasted with the sand and dirt from the floor.
The eye surgons picked stuff out of my eyes for a month, every other day.
This happened in 1967, before OSHA.

Bruce Works good
Lasts long time
 
Shade
I too have used the hoist frame for safety, as well as a welded steel frame.
The rim that failed on me was being held with a heavy cross shaped bar with an inch and half acme threaded shaft thru it and secured with a nut.
The shaft broke when the ring popped out. I ended up with a knot on my forehead, and
both eyes sandblasted with the sand and dirt from the floor.
The eye surgons picked stuff out of my eyes for a month, every other day.
This happened in 1967, before OSHA.

You were lucky, very lucky. It is hard to believe the force 50 PSI of air pressure can produce...
 
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