Why did this rod fail?

[George Miller]

Another thing I do not like is the caps only have one side machined. Are they flat with the other side, that has not been machined. Not the best way to do things. The answer would be no.

 

[glenn in camino]

Probably too tight.

 

[gilitos]

They have wells. The photo doesn't have enough contrast to show them 'well'.

 

[tbirdtbird]

then the next question is what clearance was used?
Should be .0015-002.
which babbitt alloy was used? There are several that should be avoided.
were appropriate temps met stringently?
was the babbitt peened?

 

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

OK Boys, know that the engine is one of ours. I seen this post about 10:00 today and waited until now, to get in more comments.

First of all, something has gotten into the bearings, The worst one of the two, all the damage is on the crank side of the Babbitt. I see no tinning problem what so ever, as the babbitt is still in the rod.

Look at the oil grooves, in the bottom of the bad cap. They are the same kind of surface as the whole, or most of the cap, and the crank can not touch the bottom of the grooves, so there has to have been something in between.

Mr. T.B., the mains always will have .002 thousandths clearance here, and the Model A Rods will have .001-75, with .001-60 being Minimum, and .002-10 being Maximum.

Also MR. T. B., Model T, A and B, Fords do not have oil wells. They are only used in pressure bearings, and not always then. I can explain the rest if you want some time on here.

George, the rods are machined on both sides.

When the Babbitt in the cap starts getting thinner, it will knock off the flanges very easily, with the small pieces of Babbitt trying to get out.

Mr. Vicky, 2. It appears that there is material build up on #2, so maybe the cap wasn't flush with the rod when assembled?

Can't Happen.

Now, Giles and I have gotten along real good, (or did), I know he is a God Fearing Man, and tells it, as he knows it.

Giles, calling you about 3 times an asking if you got your engine running, you hadn't until the I think, the 3rd time when you told me that you and your boy had just got it in and were telling me you still didn't have a radiator, as you were waiting on one from some where.

At that time you made me cringe when you said, you had run the motor in the car with no water, and I said oh, that's not good, and you then said, it was only for about 5 minutes, which is way to long, as any running under that condition, is to long, and NEVER should be done.

Nothing else I could say, it was over and done.

I might add, when you run a fresh motor with out water, all the high temps stay around the top of the cylinders, and no way to dissipate the heat evenly. If I also recall, Giles torqued the head again, and that would have made an uneven torque, hot, or cold, because the top of the block, and head were of uneven heat.

Then there was a period of time when you e-Mailed me and said you had a water leak, and you pulled the head, and there was a crack in the block, and sent pictures, which I still have in my other PC, as all your e-Mails.

You said you were going to try to get someone to fix it on your end. You said that you had found some one then, and that is the last I had heard from you, I think ?

So, did you get it fixed?

Who put on the head and torqued it?

From running it with out water, did the pistons score?

Was there antifreeze in the engine?

Again, what kind of oil?

Thanks,

Herm.

 

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

then the next question is what clearance was used?
Should be .0015-002.
which babbitt alloy was used? There are several that should be avoided.
were appropriate temps met stringently?
was the babbitt peened?

Mr. T.B., the only Babbitt that you don't want to use is a lead base.

We use Grade No. 2

Herm.

 

[tbirdtbird]

OK so it would seem obvious then who is at fault here

 

[Mike V. Florida]

At that time you made me cringe when you said, you had run the motor in the car with no water, and I said oh, that's not good, and you then said, it was only for about 5 minutes, which is way to long, as any running under that condition, is to long, and NEVER should be done.

Guess those that said overheat were correct.

 

[Mike V. Florida]

Overheated one rod bearing (but not the other next to it) in five minutes from lack of water?
Yet had oil and oil pump in engine.
And didn't score/seize the cylinders or pistons or rings?

I must have missed it but where does he say the other two were good. He did show one very bad and one showing slight damage. I also seemed to have missed the post where he states the cylinders were not scored and the rings are in good shape.

 

[tbirdtbird]

Personally I am sure the motor was run for longer than 5 minutes.
Everyone says 5 min for everything

 

[tbirdtbird]

Just for grins how do we know if the owner primed the valve chamber and thus the mains with oil? How do we know if he had enough oil in it? How about a pic of the dipper tray? Is it one of those that was misguidedly drilled out? If he is willing to run a motor with no water then to me all bets are off

 

[Big hammer]

Yep someone got excited to hear it run! No water, no oil priming, to slow idle, the list could go on.

 

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

This was a Model T engine with a complete rebuild, about 1000 to 1200 miles that ran out of oil because the owner thought it was full because the oil would drip out of the top petcock with a drop or two, an honest mistake, I did that also did that when I was a kid.

Here are the rods and pistons, cylinders did not have a mark in them, and it only took out one rod, No. 3, and it was No. 4 piston that got creamed. If it wasn't for the Aluminum in the Babbitt, the 3 rods could have been used over.

The mains are all full of Aluminum also.

 

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

I have about 249 pictures of Giles engine, here are a few.

 

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Here are some more.

 

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Here's more

 

[700rpm]

You do beautiful work, Herm.

 

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Here's More.

This is all I done to the motor.

The pan on there is mine, on with 4 bolts, just for protection.

Herm.

 

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Here are some pictures of the way the motor came in.

The story that was told me, that the engine was rebuilt by a very well known engine builder in Ohio. Giles said it got less then a 100 miles on it and the bearings went out.

Then he took it back a second time, and they did it over for NO CHARGE.

Then less then a 100 miles, the bearings went out again, and the builders said this time they they would have to charge him to do it again, so that is when I got it.

Now in all fairness to Giles, the first time bearings, I did not see, but the second time, was the worst attempt at a Babbitt job, I have seen for a long time.

His block had at least two cracks, and was not cleaned very good.

Here are some of the pictures I took when it came in to Vern at Arnold Motors, in Fort Dodge, Iowa.

By the way, if you want perfect motor work done, send it to Vern. 800-765-2926, a little plug there for him. He gets engines from all over.

Herm.

 

[gilitos]

Well, Herm, I'm sorry you got drug into this. I didn't mention your name on purpose and I had no intention to do so. Your work was gorgeous and these problems had nothing to do with your work. My problem started when another crack appeared in the block after I got it back from you. I would have much preferred to send it back to you and Vern to take care of it, but shipping costs to Iowa and the presence of a local 'professional' antique engine repair place here overcame my better judgement. How could a crack repair be so difficult? Well, it turned out that it was for them. The motor went back to that shop twice for repair of the same crack problem (after the first time, the valve seat popped out in a few miles). I got it back from that shop the second time and the rod bearing went out. Personally I don't believe that the oil pump was reinstalled correctly. It's okay, I'm only out about $6000 at this point.

I want to reiterate to everyone that the quality of Herm and Vern's work, and the communication, and the service, was the best I have seen. I believe that my problems came from the shop I went to (twice) for crack repair.