Who Does Babbit in or Around Dayton Ohio?
- Thread starter hotrod937
- Start date
firetique57
Senior Member
Rons Machine Shop in Shandon Ohio near Cincinnati. Check out the web site. http://ronsmachineshop.net
phaetonblue
Junior Member
I live in Dayton, Ohio and we have a member in our Model A club named Mike Bogart who lives in Troy, Ohio. He does all types of work on the Model A except body work. He did the babbit work on my engine and even made bushings for my camshaft because the journals were oversize. He did a pretty nice job. His number is (937)335-9353. Hope this helps.
hotrod937
Member
Thanks! I know an awesome guy in your club named Gary W. I remember him saying something about a motor guy he knew passing away. Is this not that guy? I would love to have someone local to talk to and possibly maybe help along in the process. I'm an Engineering Technology student and plan on working in this field. I know about almost everything I'm into and really feel like I'm being held underwater on this A babbitt deal. There is almost no info on these motors from a tech stand point. Most of the old timers I've talked to just pay to have it done and the ones that know about it don't seem to want to talk about it. Talking to some tech guys at parts places was little help.
James Rogers
Well-known member
If it was that easy to do it correctly, everybody would do it.
Ross/Kzoo
Well-known member
And we wouldn't have all these posts about bad babbit jobs!
Kevin in NJ
Well-known member
First off the difference between babbitt and inserts.
Well properly done you should expect between 50,000 and 80,000 or so miles on the bearings. Of course the catch phrase is 'properly done'.
Babbitt has some special advantages. The engine is designed to eat dirt, it was designed to run on dirty low quality fuel on dirty roads with low quality oil. That was 1928. Of course you must understand the engine was designed to run 60 MPH getting better than 20 MPG.
So the babbitt allows for embedding. This lets large chunks of stuff to safely embed in the thick babbitt and not harm the crank. Babbitt also fails gracefully. It lets you know when something is bad and will likely let you limp home. Ya, it can fail suddenly, but it is likely you missed the starts of something many miles earlier. When it fails the parts are not generally ruined.
Babbitt is happy with the oil system. No pressure needed the bearings are well bathed in the slippery stuff.
Inserts are done cause they are modern and too many guys have done babbitt wrong. Inserts done right are fine- but. The inserts do not allow dirt to embed. They do not fail gracefully, if they are going to fail it is likely catastrophic and it is also likely to take out the block and the crank. You will need a tow home.
So whats up with babbbit. Lots of bad information via word of mouth. There is a lot of rules that must be followed to get a good pour. It gets even trickier when you are working with small pots of babbitt. Your goal is to pour the babbitt in such a manner that the crystals are small.
So this means you need to have very clean pots, small chunks of babbitt so they melt quickly, a hot burner, proper stirring techniques. If you are running a small pot you have to be even more careful.
We did our first pouring long before the internet. Lots of things went wrong. We now understand why since we have located technical info on the net. Finding the info and cross checking it was not easy.
Then there are the other details. Like proper peening tools and timing. Must be done while the babbitt is still warm or you cause micro cracking.
There is a lot to proper babbitting.
Then there is the thousands of dollars of tooling and knowing about how to use the tooling. The knowledge of proper machining techniques is also a killer. You have to have a deep understanding of what the tooling is going to do and how to compensate for the induced errors. There is a saying brand new machines in un-experience hands will not be as accurate as worn out tooling in experienced hands.
Just getting the bearing inline and the proper position is just one small piece of the puzzle. There is understanding shims. Knowing about caps that are too messed up to use. Realizing that Ford used what consider racing tolerances in building the A engine on the line. You have to check the crank grinders work as it needs to be to thousands or sub thousands accuracy to return to factory specs. In some cases you are lucky to get 10's of thou accuracy. Then there is balancing. The piston rod combo on the factory line would have been within 4 grams of each other. Today you are lucky to get the rods in 5 grams total weight (factory was +- 1 gram at each end).
Least I forget one other factor. If the babbitt is lead based do not bother using it unless it is a museum piece that is not driven.
I hope that brings some perspective to what it takes to build the A engine.
It is not easy or cheap to do it right. It also happens that the A is such that it will 'work' when it is way out of spec. So it can be thrown together and made to move under it own power.
Well properly done you should expect between 50,000 and 80,000 or so miles on the bearings. Of course the catch phrase is 'properly done'.
Babbitt has some special advantages. The engine is designed to eat dirt, it was designed to run on dirty low quality fuel on dirty roads with low quality oil. That was 1928. Of course you must understand the engine was designed to run 60 MPH getting better than 20 MPG.
So the babbitt allows for embedding. This lets large chunks of stuff to safely embed in the thick babbitt and not harm the crank. Babbitt also fails gracefully. It lets you know when something is bad and will likely let you limp home. Ya, it can fail suddenly, but it is likely you missed the starts of something many miles earlier. When it fails the parts are not generally ruined.
Babbitt is happy with the oil system. No pressure needed the bearings are well bathed in the slippery stuff.
Inserts are done cause they are modern and too many guys have done babbitt wrong. Inserts done right are fine- but. The inserts do not allow dirt to embed. They do not fail gracefully, if they are going to fail it is likely catastrophic and it is also likely to take out the block and the crank. You will need a tow home.
So whats up with babbbit. Lots of bad information via word of mouth. There is a lot of rules that must be followed to get a good pour. It gets even trickier when you are working with small pots of babbitt. Your goal is to pour the babbitt in such a manner that the crystals are small.
So this means you need to have very clean pots, small chunks of babbitt so they melt quickly, a hot burner, proper stirring techniques. If you are running a small pot you have to be even more careful.
We did our first pouring long before the internet. Lots of things went wrong. We now understand why since we have located technical info on the net. Finding the info and cross checking it was not easy.
Then there are the other details. Like proper peening tools and timing. Must be done while the babbitt is still warm or you cause micro cracking.
There is a lot to proper babbitting.
Then there is the thousands of dollars of tooling and knowing about how to use the tooling. The knowledge of proper machining techniques is also a killer. You have to have a deep understanding of what the tooling is going to do and how to compensate for the induced errors. There is a saying brand new machines in un-experience hands will not be as accurate as worn out tooling in experienced hands.
Just getting the bearing inline and the proper position is just one small piece of the puzzle. There is understanding shims. Knowing about caps that are too messed up to use. Realizing that Ford used what consider racing tolerances in building the A engine on the line. You have to check the crank grinders work as it needs to be to thousands or sub thousands accuracy to return to factory specs. In some cases you are lucky to get 10's of thou accuracy. Then there is balancing. The piston rod combo on the factory line would have been within 4 grams of each other. Today you are lucky to get the rods in 5 grams total weight (factory was +- 1 gram at each end).
Least I forget one other factor. If the babbitt is lead based do not bother using it unless it is a museum piece that is not driven.
I hope that brings some perspective to what it takes to build the A engine.
It is not easy or cheap to do it right. It also happens that the A is such that it will 'work' when it is way out of spec. So it can be thrown together and made to move under it own power.
Guess if your taught by a master craftsman it does come easy. The most important thing is having the correct babbit. (EPA screw up). I do agree with most of what Kevin has stated and there are parts I don't. Most expensive tool is the lathe.
No matter what. If the kid wants to learn I think that's great. We shouldn't scare him off. We need people that willing to learn correctly to make sure the Model A's are still on the road in the future.
No matter what. If the kid wants to learn I think that's great. We shouldn't scare him off. We need people that willing to learn correctly to make sure the Model A's are still on the road in the future.
gz
Well-known member
Hart Machine Shop does a great job.
http://www.hartsmachineservice.com/
http://www.hartsmachineservice.com/
J and M Machine
Senior Member
Purdy Swoft
Well-known member
Not trying to cause anybody to lose business. If it is the thrust measurement that has you stumped, Snyders sells a bronze thrust washer to solve the problem. The thrust washer replaces the aluminum rear main oil seal.If the rest of the babbit is ok this could solve your problem. The part number is A-6334 lists for $43.00 and is on page A-119 of the newest Snyders catalog and is pictured on the left lower corner of the page.
Tom Wesenberg
Well-known member
I was going to suggest the same thing Purdy just mentioned, and if the babbit is good except for end thrust, this is the way to go for now.
James Rogers
Well-known member
That thing is like putting a band-aid on a dismembered arm.
James Rogers
Well-known member
Good luck.
