Topher5150
Senior Member
I think there was a special on the history channel about Henry Ford and the Dodge brothers working together.
Who designed he Model T engine
- Thread starter Ol' Ron
- Start date
If that's the same one I watched, it was a lot of "bunk", to quote Henry Ford. Very inaccurate, typical Hollywood story-telling. Henry Ford once said that "history is a lot of bunk", meaning nonsense. He was right in a lot of cases. In school I was taught that 'Columbus discovered America and that the earth is round, not flat.' Wrong on both counts! Or the fable about George Washi8ngton and the cherry tree. And so on.
rotorwrench
Well-known member
At least one of the docu-dramas that has been presented about the relationship that Ford had with the Dodge brothers was very disappointing. I don't think they did much research for it and it painted a bad picture of their relationship. It was basically just business between an owner and investors in his company. The Dodge brothers owned a pretty good stake in Ford Motor Co. It cost Henry a lot to buy them out but he did it within good business practices of the day. They took the money and started there own automobile manufacturing company but they weren't the only investors that did that after working with Henry Ford. Henry had already been leveraged out of a company before and he wasn't going that route a second time.
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dropacent
Senior Member
Royce has told the correct K history in two paragraphs , IMHO . From my personal knowledge , there is likely not a K running today that hasn’t had the transmission totally remade or rebuilt. Many found through the years had other transmissions grafted into place, to keep them on the road. The F was a 2 cylinder, 12 HP auto made at the same time , and the K transmission is just about the same size. The F transmissions did not hold up well, either. The F sold out in a year, and it took FoMoCo 4 or 5 years to get rid of the K production. Sure, they had grandiose plans for the K, and since the Dodge brothers were large shareholders, and the largest supplier to the company, they forced the purchase of 1000. In the end, they sold them with stripped down bodies to get rid of them. There has recently been a lot of revisionist history put out by a non neutral person that has never been challenged by any historian. This is my opinion, the K is a grand car, but was a flop when new. I believe Henry never wanted anything to do with another 6 cylinder car. ( and he didn’t )
Jack Innes
Well-known member
Henry Ford did make one, & one only, six cylinder car other than the K model in the pre T period.
The car still exists in fine running condition.
I also have recently made some parts for two different model K cars & have seen them totally apart. Compared to other large cars of the era the K could be best described as "dainty". Royce & Tim have summed them up quite well.
The car still exists in fine running condition.
I also have recently made some parts for two different model K cars & have seen them totally apart. Compared to other large cars of the era the K could be best described as "dainty". Royce & Tim have summed them up quite well.
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dropacent, I would like your personal opinion: who is the person putting out falsified (revisionist) history? Or, what titles are associated with this bad information? It would be helpful to know what to avoid. I enjoy history but I don't appreciate fiction masquerading as fact!
Thanks for your help!
rotorwrench
Well-known member
The one I'm referring to came from a 4-part series titled "The Men Who Built America" on the History Channel. The part about Henry Ford specifically. Like all "Docu-Dramas", the producers have to add and change history to make it "interesting to the masses" when in fact, they paint a new history that is very loosely based on any facts at all. They focused on strife with investors and employees instead of just putting actual historical content of the Ford Motor Company out there. It was one of the worst docu-dramas I've ever witnessed.
I can't speak to the quality of the early Fords other than there is always a reason that they are changed from one year to the next. Ford tried to manufacture a large car to compete in that market but the engineering was not going to catch up. Ford's vision was for an affordable car for the masses and the Model K was in another market. When they finally went the route they did, the cars (Model T) became popular very quickly. When Ford finally got back in to the high end market it was the purchase of Lincoln from Henry Leland that got them there.
I can't speak to the quality of the early Fords other than there is always a reason that they are changed from one year to the next. Ford tried to manufacture a large car to compete in that market but the engineering was not going to catch up. Ford's vision was for an affordable car for the masses and the Model K was in another market. When they finally went the route they did, the cars (Model T) became popular very quickly. When Ford finally got back in to the high end market it was the purchase of Lincoln from Henry Leland that got them there.
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Royce P
Senior Member
Actually the first 800 or so cars had water pumps and two lever / two pedal operating controls. The first 2499 cars had water pumps. Those from around S/N 801 - 2499 had three pedals and a water pump. They are rare.
Here's S/N 904 which had a water pump when this photo was taken in the early 1920's, and still has a water pump today:
Here's S/N 904 which had a water pump when this photo was taken in the early 1920's, and still has a water pump today:
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New book out called "Michigan's C. Harold Wills: The Genius Behind the Model T". It covers his time as one of the first Ford employees and the work he did on the Model T. I think most historians say he was the lead designer. And he led most of the development work on the A thru S cars, I believe.
trulyvintage
Well-known member
The Ford Model B marketed in 1904 and 1905 was the first 4 cylinder production car marketed by Ford Motor Company.
The Dodge Brothers were stockholders at Ford Motor Company.
It has a water pump.
It was the first to have a fully enclosed rear differential - driveline - engine in front of the firewall.
The only documented - largely original Model B known to exist - is historically known as B 52.
The Ford Model B cars were identified by number(s) cast at multiple locations on the engine.
B 52 is currently in Southern California undergoing a minimal sympathetic restoration.
It is hopefully going to enter and complete the 2019 New London to New Brighton Run in Minnesota.
Jim
The Dodge Brothers were stockholders at Ford Motor Company.
It has a water pump.
It was the first to have a fully enclosed rear differential - driveline - engine in front of the firewall.
The only documented - largely original Model B known to exist - is historically known as B 52.
The Ford Model B cars were identified by number(s) cast at multiple locations on the engine.
B 52 is currently in Southern California undergoing a minimal sympathetic restoration.
It is hopefully going to enter and complete the 2019 New London to New Brighton Run in Minnesota.
Jim
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rotorwrench
Well-known member
This book tells a lot about Henry Ford through the eyes of one of his closest confidants. I think he trusted Charlie's advice more than about anyone else in his life with exception to his wife Clara. Henry was a loner so he had few close friends but he always kept Mr Sorensen relatively close to him.
Mr Sorensen tells the whole story about all the people that were involved in the Model T. It was a closed project in a room in the back corner of the Piquette Avenue plant to keep secrecy from the other investors. There were four men of Hungarian decent directly on the team. Joe Galamb, an engineer, with Gene Farkas, a design man, and Jules Haltenberger, another engineer, as assistants. Charles Balough, another engineer, was a friend of Joe Galamb since they went to engineering school together in Budapest before coming to the US. They spoke Hungarian when talking about the project so few others could tell what they were talking about.
Charlie Sorensen was the pattern man who fashioned many of the parts from wood so that they could see how they would work together prior to going to casting. He had a knack for understanding Henry Fords ideas and making them into reality. They used a chalk board for design instead of blue prints. They took photographs of the chalk board in order to have a design to go to patent whenever they had a new ideas. This way no one could break in and see what they were doing.
C. Harold Wills and a technical assistant J. Kent Smith, a metallurgist, were very involved in the Vanadium steel development for gears, axles, and some other parts for strength and longevity. They also developed ways to heat treat the metals for strength. This led to a very tough product that would last far longer than anything Ford had built before.
Some of the design came from previous models but there were a lot of changes even to those. Henry was a guy that had innovative ideas but he counted on those around him to do the actual design, fabrication, and implementation of these ideas. Henry's brilliance was as an industrialist with very sound judgment about how to go about mass production and consumerism. He could recognize the potential in people to get things done.
The book is available on Amazon in paperback.
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trulyvintage
Well-known member
Henry Ford forced the Dodge Brothers out.
It was not Amicable.
I transported the 1906 Model K to Dean Yoder last year from Oregon
after Bakersfield Swap.
I attended the New London to New Brighton Run as well
where Dean and KD had a long Saturday but managed to cross
the finish line.
I hopefully will be there again this year.
Jim
It was not Amicable.
I transported the 1906 Model K to Dean Yoder last year from Oregon
after Bakersfield Swap.
I attended the New London to New Brighton Run as well
where Dean and KD had a long Saturday but managed to cross
the finish line.
I hopefully will be there again this year.
Jim
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rotorwrench
Well-known member
The Dodge brothers wanted Ford to build large luxury cars like the Model K. Their idea was lower volume and higher price. You can see that in the cars that they built as well. They also built a lot of the model K but they didn't want to do the development work to get it more reliable. John & Horace had a different idea about how to go about the manufacture of automobiles that didn't fit Henry Ford's plans. They finally built a tough car on their own but Budd built the bodies and they were almost twice the price of a Ford. Henry eventually wanted to build the whole car and that was his concept. Mass production required the aid of other suppliers though, at least until the company was up to doing most of it in house. They didn't get that far before Henry died but they were pretty close. Henry had no problem buying them all out, He actually got a loan to do it but payed it down quickly by selling off unneeded assets. Henry may not have liked the Dodge brothers but he had some respect for their abilities to work hard and stay in the auto manufacturing business. He never felt that they would be a serious competitor and they never were. Walter P Chrysler was the one that developed their brand into competition with Ford.
Henry started up the separate company Ford and Son to make it appear that he was willing to scrap Ford Motor Company and he stopped paying dividends to pay for the new plant. This forced most of the other stock holders to take him to court. Whether they would win or not, Ford Motor Company would lose so they finally accepted his buy out offers. All but one of the major stock holders sold out for a large sum. The DB were only a 10% share holder so they only got 10% of the buy out. Jim Couzins was the only one that didn't sell but he was the president of the company so he was an integral part of Ford Motors plus he was highly valued by Henry Ford. He eventually went on to be mayor of Detroit and a Senator from Michigan after he finally sold out.
Henry started up the separate company Ford and Son to make it appear that he was willing to scrap Ford Motor Company and he stopped paying dividends to pay for the new plant. This forced most of the other stock holders to take him to court. Whether they would win or not, Ford Motor Company would lose so they finally accepted his buy out offers. All but one of the major stock holders sold out for a large sum. The DB were only a 10% share holder so they only got 10% of the buy out. Jim Couzins was the only one that didn't sell but he was the president of the company so he was an integral part of Ford Motors plus he was highly valued by Henry Ford. He eventually went on to be mayor of Detroit and a Senator from Michigan after he finally sold out.
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mhsprecher
Well-known member
Those original stockholders made a fortune from their Ford stock. It is interesting to look it up and convert to today's dollar.
One of the issues was that Ford wanted to take profits and plow them back into the company. The stockholders wanted dividends. Sound familiar? They took him to court and won.
One of the issues was that Ford wanted to take profits and plow them back into the company. The stockholders wanted dividends. Sound familiar? They took him to court and won.
SkimmerBob
Senior Member
The Earth Is Flat!!!!!!
YIKES!!!!!!!
Is it Circular or square? How thick is it and does the gravity pull whatever is on the under side up ?
rotorwrench
Well-known member
In the end they all won as far as I'm concerned. The stockholders who were bought out were paid way in excess of what they had invested so they all got more than they expected. Ford gained full control of a private company so he got what he wanted. The court judgement was in favor of the stockholders as far as their being compensated by dividends BUT the court could in no way set what amount those dividends could be monetarily. This gave the person running the company the right to adjust dividends to meet the needs of the company as well. Henry couldn't stop paying them but he could adjust them low enough so as to build what ever the company needed to keep producing. This is a famous case and there is a lot about it in law books as well as the internet. It set presidents that are largely ignored today. The reason is that there are very few companies of this size that aren't listed on the US stock exchanges as publicly traded companies.