Which Direction for Inner Axle Seals

[NormC]

I am rebuilding the rear end for my 1936 Pickup and crap, I need some help!

Which direction are the axle inner seals(p/n B4245) installed in the rear end bells? In the second photo, should LYO face towards the brake hub axle nut or towards the Banjo ring and pinion?

Same question for the drive shaft torque tube. Should LYO face towards the transmission or towards the rear end?

Thanks, Norm

 

[ford38v8]

Norm, all such rubber seals are installed with the edge facing the inside. Think of a snow shovel dragged over the snow or pushed along facing the snow.

OK, snow shovel doesn't work for either Ga or Ca, so think of... a paint scraper?

 

[Mart]

Ok, I'll have a stab.

Rear bells: LYO towards the hubs, to keep the oil in the axle and off the brakes.

Front of the torque tube: LYO towards the rear, to keep the lube in the spherical cups surrounding the UJ.

My natural instinct would have been the other way around, but I read it should be that way round in a recent thread on UJ lubrication.

I can't quite square this one away, and would like to see a definitive statement from a proper expert.

Mart.

 

[Lawrie]

I just replaced the ones in my 33 they were set to keep the oil in the rear,but had allowed a pile of wheel bearing grease past the seal into the axle tube(bell).I fitted the new ones the other way round to keep the grease in the wheel bearings. time will tell if the gear oil gets into the brakes,But it should not get there,as the large wheel bearing seal should stop that.
Lawrie

 

[NormC]

Norm, all such rubber seals are installed with the edge facing the inside. Think of a snow shovel dragged over the snow or pushed along facing the snow.

OK, snow shovel doesn't work for either Ga or Ca, so think of... a paint scraper?

LOL Alan, I think I might have seen a picture of a snow shovel

 

[NormC]

Mart, I thought that would be the correct direction until Lawrie added a new twist

I will wait for additional opinions to try to sort out a game plan.

Thanks, Norm

 

[DICK SPADARO]

Your luck today I just removed some old seals from a rear axle, a check is as I suspect the correct installation process. The seal has a taper side and an open side. The seal is installed in the axle tube with the open side towards the bearing flange side. Meaning the taper side of the seal faces the ring gear. It was expressed to me that when dealing with seals you use the old male/female rule and the axle shaft is inserted through the seal taper not against the seal taper so that is the correct positioning of the seal for installation.

 

[NormC]

Thanks Dick for untwisting the twist That shall be the way I will install the seals, LYO towards the Banjo.

Thanks again, Norm

 

[Lawrie]

if you look at page 361 of the model A service bulletins ,it shows the correct way to instal the seals, the inner on that runs on the axle is installed the opposite to the way I did mine,( its too late to change them now as the rear is all assembled and back in.)
It is installed with the open end of the seal towards the differential,
Lawrie

 

[NormC]

Well Dang Gone The saga continues

Which way do these dang seals go?

I need more input.

Thanks, Norm

 

[DavidG]

I deleted my earlier vote and did some homework, which often is more reliable than relying on one's memory. Page 114 of the August, 1933 Ford Service Bulletin reaffirms the Model A Service Bulletin information cited above by Lawrie. I quote: "The grease retainers in the axle housings and torque tube (B-4245) should always be replaced when axle is overhauled. Install retainer in torque tube with sharp edge of leather toward the universal joint. Install retainers the axle housings with sharp edge of leather toward the differential." (The seal of original retainers was made of leather.)

So, the male/female rule applies to the drive shaft seal, but not to the axle housing seals.

 

[V12Bill]

I have to agree with Mart. The rears had a grease fitting to grease the wheel hub bearings up to about 1939. If you put too much grease in the zerk fitting the excess grease went on the brakes. Although you don't want grease in the differential, it is better there than on the brakes. At the upper end of the torque tube, you don't want grease and oil running from the UJ and the ****** down to the differential and over filling the differential.

 

[PeteVS]

I posted this a short while ago, but I look at it this way: The lips on the seals point towards the transmission. The seals only hold pressure in one direction. Pressure the other way will just push its way through under the lip. Having the lips towards the transmission for both axle and driveshaft seals will keep pressure from pushing lubricant out to the brakes. Pressure, however, safely vents out from the transmission with little ill effect. Let the hub bearing grease migrate into the differential. Let differential oil or driveshaft grease migrate into the transmission. No big deal. But if pressure gets trapped, it could migrate out into the brakes and that IS a big deal.

 

[richard crow]

the cuting edge of the seal faces the lubercant you want to contain that ruel aplies to any wear a seal is used

 

[Mart]

Good discussion, guys.

Mart.

 

[DICK SPADARO]

I dont know how to explain this any better to you doubting Lucy's. The axle seal is positioned like I explained, if you install it against the taper edge flow the open edge can potentially get caught or drag during assembly and flip over during installation to not promote much of a seal surface at all. I have included a picture of the potential problem when installing a seal against the grain, since this is out of sight when installed you have no way of determining if the seal is flipped or not so for peace of mind the male/female example is the most accurate way of assembly.

 

[John R]

..... "... Install retainer in torque tube with sharp edge of leather toward the universal joint. Install retainers the axle housings with sharp edge of leather toward the differential." ......

Dave, Thanks for digging up the original installation instructions.

For me, it's a bit hard to interpret the original ("sharp edge") directions quoted above. The sealing edge of today's seal has a symmetrical V-shaped sharp edge. As can be seen in Norm's original post, the seal has an open side (photo #1) and a closed side (photo #2). A higher pressure on the open side will increase the sealing effectiveness and vice versa. Thus, for me, it would be a bit clearer to refer to the open or closed sides when describing the procedures and rationales for orientation of the seals.

 

[Mart]

Dick, with respect, your argument does not stand up.

The best example I can think of is the transmission input shaft. You install the seal so it keeps the oil in the trans. You can't help going "against the grain" when you fit the front snout.

Obviously what is important is to lubricate the surfaces and use care when assembling.

Mart.

 

[NormC]

I remembered reading somewhere the required direction for these seals but CRS caught up with me "Where" I read it. Well, as all of our wives have told us, read the directions dummy. There it was in the "Ford Barners" recommended reading, Ford V8 Service Bulletins, figure 184 and 185. The correct orientation of the seals are the lip of the seal facing the brake hub and transmission.

Dick was correct.

I don't post much on the forum, but I read it almost daily. There is a wealth of knowledge here that I have quietly enjoyed learning from and continue to learn from.

A dog is never too old to teach new tricks to if the dog wants to learn.

Thanks to all, Norm

 

[rotorwrench]

There is no fast and easy rule since there are always exceptions. On a grease closure, they are designed to let the grease purge out when servicing. On a fluid closure the lip generally is put toward the fluid unless there is a case preasure concern and the fluid level does not reach the closure.

I always wondered why FoMoCo put the grease fittings on the axle housings. Those hubs can't get a good service unless they are removed and hand packed. There is no where for the grease to purge out well enough to get the old contaminated lubricant out. Purging into the rear axle housing is not a good idea. Ford put the seals there to keep the grease out of the axle housing. The fluid level in the rear axle is generally below the axle a good bit so oil leaking out there is generally not a problem. The differentials rely on the ring gear to distribute lubrication to the bearings & gears.