whats it worth? (Pics Added)

F

First-A-NJ

Junior Member
hello,
I am hoping you guys can give me a ballpark idea of what my (potentially) first model A should be purchased for. I have not yet done a thorough inspection.

A little about me. Im 27 and live in central nj. I have no experience in A's or too much in automotive in general. I was working at the gentleman's house and fell in love at first site. I'd love to say "i was around them all my life" or "my grandpa had one..." etc, etc but that is not the case. I guess you could say that this car found me! Im good with tools and love to learn.

Ok enough about me and back to the A. Upon quick inspection i can say that it is probably a 30 or 31 fordor with a 3rd window (fixed) on the sides. Black in color with vinyl interior. The back seat has about a 4" wide horizontal green stripe running across the face of it. There is no headlining at this time. There is no evidence of rust anywhere that i can see now. The paint is in very fare condition. It was last started in 2005 and supposedly runs great. The vehicle was his fathers that was purchased new and has the original bill of sale. He also said that it is all original with the exception of something he had to change with the headlights to pass inspection in the 70's.

I know this is not too much detail. I plan on doing a thorough inspection and a test drive before i purchase. I was just hoping for a ballpark number from you pro's.

Thanks in advance
 

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Re: whats it worth?

Vinyl interior is not original. You'll need the complete interior upholstery kit, which is probably $2,000 or close to it. Prices are probably higher in N.J., but in the midwest I'd think $5,000 to $7,000 from what little I have to go on, and that's if the wood is good. If the wood is bad, as a first timer you may not want to get that involved. Wood replacement is very expensive and time consuming.
 
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Re: whats it worth?

I think you might find this interesting. I wrote it and had it posted on Jim Mason's site before he took it down (I sure miss it).

I was recently asked by someone who was interested in becoming involved in the Model A hobby where to start. The following is my answer to that question. I also mention what can be done to “personalize” a Model A. Some of the items I discuss I would not do to my own Model A but these are based on the way I use my car. I have included changes that I would not make to my own car to enable you to understand what you might find on an existing vehicle. You need to evaluate these changes based on the way you will use “your” Model A. Minimize the changes you make to the Model A or you will lose the "character" of the car. When evaluating changes you also must consider that most changes will disqualify you from formal judging and some will disqualify you even from the touring class competition (check with the MARC/MAFCA clubs). Don’t become overwhelmed by the number of items discussed. You can get into a stock Model A and drive it and enjoy it.
1. The first thing you should do is to join one or both of the national clubs that specialize in Model A Fords. Membership information may be found on their web sites. The web site for the Model A Ford Club of America (MAFCA) is www.mafca.com. The web site for the Model A Restorers Club (MARC) is www.modelaford.org.
2. Join one or more local chapters of MAFCA or MARC. The local chapters are listed on the web sites for the two national clubs. Get to know the people and the cars. Try to ride in some of the cars. You need to spend some time with these cars to fully appreciate that compared to modern cars they are cold in winter and hot in summer, difficult to steer when compared to modern power assisted vehicles , have engines that vibrate compared to modern engines even when properly balanced, have a high noise level which makes conversation and radio listening difficult, require more tinkering than modern cars, have a stiff suspension and airplane wing like fenders which can make driving over 55 mph stressful for some, and don't get good gas mileage for the horsepower produced. Having said all of that, I have had my Model A for thirty years and have no intention of selling it. Ask where the local sources of parts are and what local mechanics are good. Find someone to help you evaluate a car once you think you have found the one you want.
3. Post your general location on the message board at www.ahooga.com and ask if there is anybody in your area that could suggest local events of interest.
4. Plan on purchasing the car at some point in the future (6 months is good) and don’t be tempted to rush into a purchase. Decide what you want and then go find it. Otherwise you will be stuck with a car that you don’t want when you find the one you do.
5. Decide what you want to do with the car. How are you going to use it? Are you looking for a car to show or one to drive on weekends? This will also determine how original of a car you want but I will get into that later.
6. Decide what body style you want based on what you intend for the car. Trucks are nice for hauling stuff. Sedans are good for hauling people (I like the ’31 slant window because it is an all steel body, the earlier four door sedans had a lot of structural wood). Roadsters and phaetons are nice for show but not good if you intend to use them during the winter. And the list goes on, and on, and…. Remember that the chrome and upholstery on a pick up is a lot less expensive than the chrome and upholstery on a deluxe vehicle.
7. Decide what year you want. The 1928-29’s look similar. The 1930-31’s look similar. The earlier cars look more “antique” and the later cars have smoother lines. The year you like may also be based on the body style you choose. Go to the MAFCA web site or the Dallas Model A Ford Club (www.dmafc.com) web site and look at pictures of cars to help your decision. A modern analogy to this is the small T-Birds. Some people like the early (55-56) ones and some the later (57). I personally like the later one but I know people that feel just as strongly about the early ones. A word of advice, never try to argue this point.
8.Next become familiar with the value of the Model A vehicles. Buy a magazine such as the “Old Cars Price Guide” to get an understanding of how the differences in years, body styles and condition affect prices. I wouldn’t recommend subscribing since the prices don’t change that fast but a single issue would be useful. Most parts dealers will have this magazine. You can check the values of the cars on the Internet at Bob Johnson's "What's it worth page" These sources should be used as guidance only. You can now fine tune what a specific vehicle is worth by going to the various classified advertisements with a better understanding of what affects the value of a Model A. Remember that even where you are located can have a minor affect on the value.
9. Buy a copy of the judging standards and paint standards published by the national clubs. These are available from the clubs or from most parts dealers. Read these to understand what you should be looking for on the cars. Remember these are oriented towards show cars but the authenticity of any car will help determine its value. Be sure to have someone who is knowledgeable look at any car before you buy it as it is not possible to absorb everything in the standards and someone who is familiar with the cars will often spot incorrect parts/colors. Once you have purchased a car the judging standards will be a valuable reference. I don’t own nor do I desire to own a high point show car. This book is valuable to a person like myself because it enables me to buy the correct part when presented with a selection of several parts that are functionally interchangeable. A good example is the 6 different throttle control linkages. If you are selecting from a pile of them you might as well get the one that is correct for your car since it will probably be the same price and if you ever sell your car (this I don’t recommend) it will be worth more with the correct parts.
10. Eventually you will want to have a copy of the Model A Ford Mechanics Handbook available from MARC. You should also get a copy of the service bulletins. These are available from most suppliers in a hardback book or a very authentic but more expensive copy from MARC. If you want an excellent history of the Model A get a copy of The Ford Model A As Henry Built It by George De Angelis, Edward P. Francis. When you finally buy your car if it doesn’t come with an owners manual you will want to buy one. Owner’s manuals changed over the years and you will want one to match your car. Not all revisions of the owner’s manual have been reprinted but often the changes were subtle.
11. Obtain several catalogs. Suppliers are listed (without recommendation) on the MAFCA website.) Go to “site index” and then “suppliers of Model A parts”. Be sure to get a catalog from Bratton’s, I have had very good service from them in the past. Also check Hemmings (available from most suppliers) for advertisements.
12. Find out where the local swap meets are advertised. Suppliers will often allow clubs to place stacks of their flyers advertising swap meets on their counters. If you live in the southern California area there is a magazine centered on advertising swap meets [Automotive Calendar of Events - (714) 229-9100]. I am sure that similar magazines exist in other parts of the country. Once you start attending swap meets you will find that flyers advertising other swap meets are available at the swap meets.
13. Find out where cars are advertised in your area. The MARC and MAFCA web sites advertise cars but they are national and there is a limit to how far a person can travel. Parts suppliers often provide bulletin boards for use of the hobbyists. Major local newspapers advertise and may have web sites for cars. Find out where your newspaper is first dropped off and be there to pick up a copy.
14. Don’t buy a “basket case” and plan to put it together. It is difficult for even an experienced Model A person to evaluate a “basket case” and estimate what it will cost when finished.
15. Don’t get fooled by a nice paint job. A lot of problems can hide under a good coat of paint.
16. After you have decided on a car think about it overnight. It will probably still be there and it’s good to cool off a little.
17. Be sure you have seen the car during the day with enough light to evaluate the bodywork. Stand back and look for ripples in the body panels.
18. One final item before you complete the purchase of the car is to verify that the vehicle identification number (VIN) on the car matches the VIN number on the paperwork. The original VIN number for Model A was the engine number, which appeared stamped into a boss on the left side of the engine block next to the cylinder head. When the car was manufactured this number was also stamped into the top of the left hand frame rail but after the body was installed it was no longer visible.If the engine was replaced the paperwork should have been changed with the Department of Motor Vehicles but it frequently wasn't. To correct this problem many states attach VIN plates to the vehicles door jam and use this number to register the vehicle. Note that many engines rebuilders restamped engines over the years. They may have restamped the number to match the registration or they may have restamped it with their own number (e.g. the first engine that Joe’s Garage rebuilt may have been stamped JG1). The original serial number should take the form of star, A, the number, and a final star. If the engine for your car was replaced with one that was originally installed in a truck (actually the engine was identical, Ford was trying to track a stronger clutch used in trucks) the “A” would be replaced with “AA”. The number should be between one and slightly less than five million. The MARC/MAFCA judging standards contain a table that shows when the engine was built and allowing 3 months for installation (as recommended by the standards) this would determine when the vehicle was assembled. The serial number information is available on line from the MAFCA web site (www.mafca.com). From the home page of the site go to "Site Index" and then look under "Engine production and serial number table". Remember to allow 3 months for installation. Other numbers you may find stamped on your car include a body number on the floor sill indicating where the body was manufactured and what body it was off of the production line and for the 1928 and 1929 vehicles a date (e.g. 3 15 29) on the engine compartment side of the gas tank.
Now I will get into the changes that I would make or at least consider making to a Model A assuming that I was starting with one that was original but not a high point show car or such a low mileage original that it wouldn’t be appropriate to change it. These are changes that I would personally make based on how I use my Model A. As I go down the list I am sure the purists will become increasingly angered and probably stop reading. I include these items such that you may evaluate any changes you may find on cars you are considering. If you remove original parts from the car, save them because someday someone may want to completely restore the car (this extends from bolts with special heads to complete mechanical brake systems). If you add parts, bolt them on using existing holes. The person who wants to completely restore the car in the future may turn out to be you. Remember, as I said before, you can get into a stock Model A and drive it and enjoy it.
1. Put a fuse in the electrical system. Most suppliers sell a small fuse that mounts on the generator. It’s cheap insurance.
2. Get a heat baffle that shields the distributor from the exhaust manifold heat. Be sure to get the stainless steel one, it will look good forever. The heat from the exhaust manifold is hard on the condenser. Even after installing the shield, carry an extra condenser under the seat and buy only the highest quality condenser you can get.
3. Check the water pump, if there is any sign of leakage, replace it with a pack less pump (don’t cut corners here, buy a good one).
5. Check the fan. If it is an original fan check carefully for fatigue cracks. Feel the blade for signs of rust inside between the layers of metal. Consider one of the reproduction aluminum fan blades. Also the 1933-4 fan (4 blades) is a good replacement for the Model A 2 blade but they are also old and subject to fatigue failures.
6. Install a right hand taillight. Most cars came with only a left taillight and are therefore legal (in most states) with only one light but they are sure a lot safer with two. The lights are small compared to modern cars so every little bit helps. Excellent reproduction lights and brackets are available for making this change.
The preceding are probably the best bang for your buck changes and this might be a good place to stop making changes. Changes are definitely an example of "more is not better". While a few changes tend to "personalize" the car, too many changes soon destroy the character of the car. Now for a few more changes. Keep in mind that the necessity for these changes is highly dependent on how you use “your” Model A.
7. Turn signals. Kits are available from suppliers. In today’s traffic hand signals are marginal during the day but not worth much at night.
8. Headlights. The original reflectors were silver plated and tended to tarnish. If you try to polish yours remember that silver is soft and requires a very fine polish formulated for use on silver. Plating companies can resilver your original reflectors or some companies like Uvira [(541) 474-5050] replate your reflectors with aluminum and then apply a coat of glass (trust me, this comes out a lot better than it sounds, this technology is used on mirrors to dissipate heat from communications satellites in space). Are they expensive? Yes. Are they cheaper than hitting something in the road at night due to poor headlights? Probably. Avoid the chrome-plated reflectors available from some suppliers, as they do not reflect enough light. Be sure all of your grounds are good. Apply a drop of solder on the wire connectors at the bottom of the steering column if there is still a problem. If you need really good lights consider changing the car to 12 volts and going to halogen bulbs using an adapter or the high intensity 12-volt bulbs that go into the original sockets that are available from the Ron Francis Wire Works [(800) 292-1940]. When making the change to 12 volts it is most common to use the alternators available from many of the suppliers. If and when I convert my Model A to 12 volts I intend to try to use a 1955-64 Ford 12 volt generator. I feel a generator looks more like it belongs on a Model A.
9. Hydraulic brakes. Never discuss hydraulic brakes with a purist. Never discuss politics (vote counting), religion or hydraulic brakes in mixed company. My personal opinion is that a good set of 1939-49 hydraulic brakes properly installed is a major safety improvement if you intend to drive the car very much or very fast. After having said all of that, I will admit that when I got my 1931 Roadster Pickup the hydraulic brakes were so poorly installed that I converted back mechanical brakes because they would be safer. If you choose to stay with the mechanical brakes consider putting “bands” on the steel brake drums. These are available as reproductions but may frequently be found on otherwise scrap used drums. Another good choice for the mechanical brake system is to use cast iron brake drums. These came out in late 1931 but originals are so rare that you will probably end up buying reproductions.
10. If you would like a few extra horsepower consider a higher compression head. This could take the form of using a 1932-34 head (with its associated 3 bolt water pump), an original Model A high performance “police” head (with a block B cast into the head), a head from Brumfield, or a high compression head from Snyders. These heads are only slightly above the stock compression ratio and can be bolted onto a stock engine without other modifications. If you increase the compression beyond what you get from these heads be sure you understand what other modifications you should make to the engine. If you want to go beyond this in increasing the horsepower there is a chapter (FAST) of the MARC and MAFCA clubs that is dedicated to speed equipment. Information on speed equipment is also available from the Secrets of Speed Society (SOSS)(cy4fn@aol.com).
11. If your rear end ratio is 4.11:1 consider going to a 3.54:1 rear end ratio. If you have a good rear end with a 3.78:1 ratio it would probably not be worth changing. If you have to rebuild the rear end for other reasons definitely go to the 3.54:1 ratio when you have it apart. A recent posting pointed out how small the change in RPM is for a given speed between the 3.78:1 and 3.54:1 ratios. I double-checked the math and it was right. All I know is that my Roadster Pick-up with a 3.54:1 ratio sure runs better than my roadster with a 3.78:1 ratio using the same engine in both vehicles.
12. If other family members are going to drive the car a 1932-34 distributor (or an aftermarket) with automatic advance might be a good idea. If you start the car with the spark lever down you risk breaking the Bendix drive on the starter motor.
This is the point at which I would stop making changes based on the way I use a Model A but there a couple of more you might consider if your situation warrants it.
1. If you have a closed car and live in a hot climate you might consider one of the firewall insulator kits sold by most suppliers. They are patterned after the firewall insulators Ford used beginning in 1932. They are not original but look like they belong there to an untrained eye.
2. A nice change if other family members are driving the car would be the later model Borg Warner transmission with full syncros. I am the only one driving my car and I personally think the original transmission is fine but I have driving Model A’s for the last 40 years.
3. A final concession to other family members (or maybe yourself if you have arthritis) would be to replace the original steering with an F1 pickup steering. This change is not visible without lifting the hood and then it is only visible if you know what you are looking for. Note that this is a bolt in type of change that can be reversed if someone desires to restore the car in the future. If I chose to rebuild the original steering because it needed it, I would suggest going to needle bearings on the sector shaft. I can’t prove they work but I have them in my steering and it works well.
Best of luck and welcome to the hobby,
Charlie Stephens
 
Re: whats it worth?

"First A", my recommendation is for you to either skip this one, --or take someone that is very knowledgable about Model A's to inspect it with you that can talk you out of buying it!! :) The "straight windshield" bodystyle you are describing is almost certainly a wood infrastructured body and can be a real source of issues. This IMO is NOT the vehicle for you unless you have a thick wallet because this will only become a car that you tinker with and will never get to experience.

I am going to suggest that you instead be looking for a 28-29 Tudor Sedan that is a currently running & driving vehicle. The reason I recommend this bodystyle is I feel it offers the best bang for your budget. The whole key is that I feel you need to able to drive it home.

/
.
 
Re: whats it worth?

Wow. Great info guys.

Tom - I suspected that the upholstery was not original due to the colors. Maybe it was leather and not vinyl. I will post pics of everything upon full inspection and yes, everything in nj is more expensive! I have already looked into the upholstery kits and am aware of the cost of authentic replacement. What is the best way to determine condition of the wood?

Charlie - great post. First off, i had no intention of getting into the hobby (not until i saw it) so im not looking for anything particular. I just had this gut feeling that i should buy it. I do plan on joining mafca and marc IF i end up purchasing. I have also already added several books to my cart @ macs for when/if i do purchase. I plan on using the A as a casual driver, not a show car or hot rod. After thorough inspection of moving parts i will take it from there. First things would be turn signals and "possibly" a 12 volt system. Also the condition of the brakes is high on the list. Will stay mechanical if there is an issue. Also i will be the only one driving it :)

The plan would be to purchase and then have a local mafca member take a look to determine authenticity. If it is, in fact, mostly original then i will replace with originals. If there is a good amount of aftermarket products then i will cross that bridge and possibly use a cheaper alternative.
 
Re: whats it worth?

Brent - good advice. I understand that the body was built around the wood and is a major pita to replace. What is the best way to inspect? Also, driving it home is a top priority. It is supposed to be in full driving condition as of now, but only a test drive will determine that. I will contact my local chapter to see if anyone would be interested in inspecting with me. I plan on taking a ton of pictures and video upon inspection.
 
Re: whats it worth?

a good clean driver in these parts goes for about 12-15 depending on some of the other issues mentioned. i am in the philly / bucks county area not far from you.
 
Re: whats it worth?

Hi First A,

My father gave me his A when I graduated from College. It was restored 40 years ago by dad and not driven for many years. I spent 2500 alone getting the brakes and wheels redone so she is safe to drive. I got lucky and the wood is all good but there are a few pieces that need to be replaced and I am NOT looking forward to it.
On your car, if the car speaks to you, then take a knowledgeable club member with you before you buy! This way you don't buy her and then have it looked at and fine out you need brakes, paint, engine, transmission, wood, etc....
If she is sound and you feel comforatable doing the mechanics or have the time and money to spend she will be a blast to drive and own. Just my 2 cents worth.

Mike
 
Re: whats it worth?

I agree, wood is the major headache.

Crawl under and inspect all the main timber stringers.

Lift out seats.

Check all doors for fit and sagging/bowing/twisting.

You can see roof wood, because of no headlining.
 
Re: whats it worth?

Lots of good advice already!
I live in Princeton. If the car is not too far away, I could have a look at out with you sometime.

Doug
 
Re: whats it worth?

So that I am clear on this in my mind, ...there is no sentimental attraction with this particular vehicle other than you were doing work at the residence where it is located and thought it would be cool to own it. Is that the basic jest?

Checking the wood is basically looking for dry-rot, and determining if the wood has aged to the point where it is extremely hard. The doors will have wood framing as will the entire body. Every area really needs to be inspected.
 
Re: whats it worth?

Wow thanks for all the great input!

Pooch - I did take a quick look at sagging in areas like where the cowl meets the firewall and the doors and i was thoroughly impressed with how straight they were. Didnt open or close any of the doors though. Thanks for specifics.

Doug - Princeton is about a 20 min drive down 206 from me!

Brent - Theres no sentimental attraction in the sense that it was in my family for years or that i had a previous love for the model A. True american classic cars have always interested me. This modern jap crap is nothing special to me at all. I come across a fair amount of classic vehicles at various properties that i've worked at. I always talk to their owners about them because they interest me. I can't explain exactly why i want this specific car. As artdeco said, i guess it spoke to me. If i wanted to buy something "cool' to have, i would buy an ipad. I actually look forward to putting the time and attention towards this as it needs and learning learning learning. Im also in no rush to get it to 100%.

Ive always enjoyed restoring things and making old and used look and work like new.

Could a regular mechanic determine the condition of the brakes, ******, engine, etc?
 
Re: whats it worth?

One thing nice about this car is IMHO for class and comfort the Fordor is hard to beat. They have good room and you can carry extra passengers. I think the Fordor is a very classy looking car, especially one like a 29 Murray Town Sedan. :)

Hope the wood is good for your sake!
 
Re: whats it worth?

Go for it...my first A bone was a 30 fourdoor that had an absolutley perfect body... 45 yrs. ago... what I liked about it the most was all that smoke I could get from the rear tires!! You see some "idiot" put a 57 chysler hemi with a torqflite transmission in it. I know there will be some on here who will think... that is just horrible...But they just didn't have the fun with it that I did. But... now I drive an original unrestored 30 coupe, and I had to buy a 25 model T roadster to get the coupe.
Your question was "what's it worth"...All the answers you got from the guys on here was good advise. Like they said get someone with some knowledge to go with you to look at it. But...if you like it, it's worth what you're willing to pay for it. Just have fun and enjoy it.
When you start driving it... you'll think your in a one car parade...everybody from little kids to old timers like me will be twisting our necks off to see it. All the best.

Stan
 
Re: whats it worth?

Tom Wesenberg said:
That right front bumper clamp shows why you don't want to buy some junk repro parts, such as cast aluminum bumper clamps.

A&L sells the best quality bumper clamps that I've found.
Click to expand...

I didn't realise that this was the place to bash peoples cars. you are nit picking a 20 year old restoration. the fact of the matter is
it was an older restoration and the guy used some repo parts ,but over all there wasn't even a patch panel or a pit on the frame. can you say the same for your car????
its going to North Carolina now
maybe the new owner will take your unsolicited advise on great bumper vendors
 
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