What Master Cylinder

'28 RPU said:
Glenn, can the Cardone 101905 work with a booster?
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I'm not trying to answer for Glenn, but I see no reason that it cannot be used with a booster, as it has a standard 2-hole mounting flange.


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To be quite honest with you, that Model 'A' of yours is such a relatively light car to begin with, and combined with the design of the Bendix-type brakes, I doubt seriously that you will need (or even want) a booster. Coop


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Here is a pic of an adjustable WC. This is only adjustable on one side (use with floating shoes) but you can get them adjustable on both sides which will allow you to adjust for minimum play on fixed brake shoes (non Bendix type).
 

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Hey guys, I really appreciate the help! Coop, they are '40 Ford Lockheed brakes not Bendix. I want to use a booster because I promised her that I would make it so that she could drive it (actually I had to agree to that or I wasn't going to be able to buy it (and stay married). She drives a '06 Mustang GT with 4 wheel disc brakes that will throw you through the windshield and when it comes to putting on the brakes on the A if they aren't somewhat similar she will have problems. I hope that helps y'all understand where I'm going with this. Ultimately I hope to go to 4 wheel discs on the A (more because I want to that because I need to).
 
'28 RPU said:
Hey guys, I really appreciate the help! Coop, they are '40 Ford Lockheed brakes not Bendix. Ultimately I hope to go to 4 wheel discs on the A (more because I want to that because I need to).
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If I had initially read your first post a little more thoroughly, you were clear as day about using the Lockheed brakes.

As far as the 4-wheel DISCS go, I understand about "CUZ I WANT TO". But you're going to have (potentially) way more brakes than you'll be able to use on that light car (IF you ever get the four discs all tuned and working happily together). If you left the Lockheeds on the rear, and bolted NEW "Bendix" Lincoln drum brakes on the front, with booster, I'd about guarantee that 4 wheel discs WOULDN'T stop you any faster (shorter). Never forget that even the best braking is only as good as tires that don't slide (lock-up).

This has been fun. Keep us abreast of progress. Coop

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Glenn, will the 101923 work ok with my drum/drum set up? I know that I will have to use residual valves and I also plan to use a proportioning valve. Would it work with the disc/disc set up I'm planning for the future? Thanks to everybody for their help!
 
Hi!

Yes the power brake version, #101923, would work with the drum/drum setup you're planning to use. Do you have space for the boosted brake MC?

This MC has no residual pressure check valves within it. For drum/drum you would need a 10psi check valve in both the front brake and rear brake circuits.

If you decided later to add discs to the front and keep the current rear drums, it would work as long as you have disc calipers that are the same or very close to those used on an 1986 Chevy S10 Blazer, the original application for this MC. In this case you would need to remove the 10psi residual check valve from the front brakes and either add a 2psi valve or use the stock Chevy metering valve and also remove both the front and rear check valves. See attached article.

The article says, "The proportioning section controls the outlet pressure to the rear brakes after a predetermined rear input pressure has been reached; this feature is provided for vehicles with light loads, to help prevent rear wheel lock-up. The by-pass feature of this valve assures full system pressure to the rear brakes in the event of a front brake system malfunction. Also, full front pressure is retained if the rear system malfunctions". This is a good design however you are still going to get more brake pedal stroke or run out of it with your pedal on the floor if one of the circuits fails, as Coop has mentioned above with his drawing.

If you're set on going with discs, I would do this from the start and would I would keep the current rear drums you and your wife will be pleased with the brakes. Key to all of this is stay as close to the application MC and WC sizes possible.

Glenn
 

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Whatever brake setup you go with, make sure that the push rod gap to MC bore has a 1/16" to 1/8" gap. Also adjust your brake shoes such that they have a slight drag. Both of these adjustments will ensure that you don't have a lot of lost action in pressurizing your brake system and will give you full pedal stroke.


Be vigilant in checking for leaks and overly hot drums. You may have to tweak the brake shoes a bit until everything is bedded in well.


Glenn
 
Coop, yes in the end it is because I want to. I have plenty of rubber on the ground, I'm using '35 wires with the widest possible tires on them. Here is situation... I had planned on doing the brakes next winter but the existing mechanical brakes became extremely unsafe so I had to do something now. I simply don't have the cash for my ideal set up but I was able to buy the '40 style set up quite reasonably from a club member. I know of a man to is working on 4 wheel disc brakes that has a working prototype and is working on getting the rotors manufactured (Covid has set him back 2 years). When he has a system available I am going to go with that As far as I know the primary thing that makes it impossible to do the disc brake job is the 5 1/2" bolt pattern (I'm talking about the rear). I have worked out how I can get a 7" booster in the space. I am thankful that this conversation has gone in the direction it has I have learned a lot of great stuff and I wouldn't change it if I could. But... nobody caught what my real purpose of starting this thread was that I was asking for advice about what master cylinder to use in order to use a remote reservoir. I guess I did not frame my question well. I have since figured out how to avoid that so it no longer matters. I posted my question here on the V8 section because when I ask a "cuz I want to I get bombarded by "experts" telling me why "if it was good enough for the last 90 years it's the only way to do it". That's my story.
 
'28 RPU said:
But... nobody caught what my real purpose of starting this thread was that I was asking for advice about what master cylinder to use in order to use a remote reservoir. I guess I did not frame my question well.

I posted my question here on the V8 section because when I ask a "cuz I want to I get bombarded by "experts" telling me why "if it was good enough for the last 90 years it's the only way to do it". That's my story.
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Hey '28 ....I caught the "REMOTE Fill" bit right off the bat. One of my pet peeves is folks jumping into a discussion that either just want to run their mouths because they can't find anyone to talk with, or those who clearly don't have a clue and want to offer advice and wisdom straight out of their collective posteriors. Hence, I generally try to refrain from commenting on that which I have no worthwhile answer for.

"Cuz I like your attitude".....I hope you'll feel welcome to visit this "V8 section" a little more frequently. You got a name, or does "Hey You" work well enough?

Coop

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Hello Coop, my name is Don Thanks for all your great comments/answers. I'm in western Washington a bit north of Seattle. Gary pops up on here from time to time and he lives on Whidbey island about 20 miles from me. I'll probably meet him some day. I'm going to stick with the banger on this one but if I ever get a chance to build another car I would probably go with a Model A again but I would seriously consider putting a Flathead V8 in it, that to me would be a perfect hot rod. Alas, finances and garage space make it unlikely that I will be able to do another.
 
When it's all said and done I will probably not need a remote reservoir but if I do I have a friend who has added them to a regular MC with very good results.
 
Over on the HAMB there is a guy selling "A Corvair disc brake set up off of a 34 Ford. For the money he's asking $200 it could be a good deal for me. I'm concerned about what would be required to install it on a Model A. He is including the spindles which I think will go on a Model A axle, yes, no, maybe? He also mentions S10 but I'm not sure what is Corvair and what is S10. I would need to use an adapter from 5 x 4.75 to 5 x 5.5 to use my '35 wires and a support ring as well. Good deal? Bad deal? Buy it? Run away? It is the dang 5x5.5 lug pattern is what makes this project difficult. There are plenty of pieces available that use the smaller patterns. It probably would not be possible to drill the 4.75 rotors to change it to 5.5? Thanks again. Don
 
'28 RPU said:
Over on the HAMB there is a guy selling "A Corvair disc brake set up off of a 34 Ford. For the money he's asking $200 it could be a good deal for me. I'm concerned about what would be required to install it on a Model A. He is including the spindles which I think will go on a Model A axle, yes, no, maybe? He also mentions S10 but I'm not sure what is Corvair and what is S10. I would need to use an adapter from 5 x 4.75 to 5 x 5.5 to use my '35 wires and a support ring as well. Good deal? Bad deal? Buy it? Run away? It is the dang 5x5.5 lug pattern is what makes this project difficult. There are plenty of pieces available that use the smaller patterns. It probably would not be possible to drill the 4.75 rotors to change it to 5.5? Thanks again. Don
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Yo, Don - Coopman here...remember me? You seem like a nice guy that's seriously trying to put together a nice & simple, yet fun and reliable car that'll provide miles of smiles for you and Momma, and with a reasonable, yet prudent outlay of cash. So, for what it's worth, and keeping in mind "WHAT THE HECK DOES THIS Coop GUY KNOW", I'm gonna suggest that you run away from that Corvair and S-10 disc brake and spindle junk like a mad man.

I know what the 16" '35 wire wheels are. I like 'em....A LOT! Love them on a Model 'A'. But NOT knowing much (if anything) about the possible combinations that you might end-up with trying to make that stuff work on your I-beam, and I'm assuming a Model 'A' banjo-type rear end (?), one of the worst possibilities that you can end-up with is those wire wheels sticking-out way too far in relation to the fenders. You start running wheel adapters, plus the fact that many disc brake rotors tend to mount wheels farther outboard than brake drums would, is a possible situation that may come back to haunt you big-time. You mentioned that the Chevy spindles may be adaptable to the Ford I-beam. That in itself does not guarantee that the CAMBER angles will be anywhere near correct, as that angle is generally set in stone with each individual spindle design. Steering arm and tie rod arms also come into serious question whether or not their positions would be conducive for use with your steering box. If, for some self-satisfying reason you are determined to put discs on all four corners, we can likely figure a couple of MORE-REASONABLE ways to accomplish that end than by wasting $200 big ones on those old Ralph Nader parts. For what it may be worth, I would be willing to HELP you figure-out a plausible path toward your goal. I'm just throwing my .04 cents worth 'cuz you asked. I KNOW that there are better ways to do this than trying to adapt that Chevy stuff.

Are we actually talking about a '28 ROADSTER PICK-UP, or some other type of Model 'A'? What type of rear end? Stock A-bone steering? Stock, mechanical brakes currently?

Coop

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Coopman Excellent, I'm just about ready to add fluid to my system. I'll let you know how it works.
Gramps
 
Mr. Coopman, I hank you for your kind offer. I'm off to work now but will get back to you later this evening. I will take your advice and steer clear of the Corvair stuff but I should mention that the set up had come off a '34 and was including the spindles which I was thinking (probably in error) that they would be a fairly straight forward swap. Thanks again.
 
'28 RPU said:
Mr. Coopman, I hank you for your kind offer. I'm off to work now but will get back to you later this evening. I will take your advice and steer clear of the Corvair stuff but I should mention that the set up had come off a '34 and was including the spindles which I was thinking (probably in error) that they would be a fairly straight forward swap. Thanks again.
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Hey Don....I believe the first thing I would have to ask would be: "WHY are you removing these great parts from your '34 Ford?"

I'll keep this short, but below is a Corvair spindle which mounts between upper & lower A-arms, via ball joints.

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Below the Corvair spindle is an old Ford spindle....NOTE kingpin angle which coincides with angle of kingpin boss on I-beam, resulting in proper CAMBER (spindle is pictured upside-down).

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NOTE the angle of the KINGPIN BOSS in a Ford I-beam, corresponding with Ford SPINDLE's Kingpin angle.


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Seen in this last photo is a complete Corvair Independent Front Suspension as the unit unbolts from the Corvair in one piece. Back in the '70s there were a bunch of clowns bolting these entire units under the front of Model 'A' thru '48 Fords. They make the car look atrocious. I wonder if that's what your H.A.M.B. guy had done?


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Posies offers a front disc brake kit that uses V8 spindles ($350) and 5x5 1/2" rotors etc ($690) Probably still requires the support plate for the wires ($25 each). All in all not a horrible price I don't think (still an awful lot of cash though). If you had some spindles already it gets a lot better. Where the problem really lies is with the rear, as to my knowledge there is nobody offering the rotors for the rear with the 5x5 1/2" pattern so adapters would be required. And also I thought I should try and clarify about the Corvair set up (I thought somebody might cruise over to the HAMB and check out the ad and determine exactly what is involved) the seller says that it came off a 34 Ford stock front axle including '34 spindles, NOT Corvair spindles. It looks like a pretty good deal for $200 (keep in mind I just said Posies want $350 for spindles). The problem I see is that lug pattern adapters would be required which in my case would set the tires out enough for tire/fender clearance issues. I also know from experience that the adapters can increase the occurance and severity of "Death Wobble" already a problem on a Model A. (the guy is selling because he apparently makes $ building nothing but '34 Ford Hot Rods with drop axles) Anyway, for the reasons given, I'll pass on the Corvair stuff.
 
Also, Coopman, yes, it's an RPU ('28). I believe that I now have the master cylinder situation solidified and plan to use the Cardone.
 
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