Welding Rear Springs

[Keith True]

I would weld it,grind it,paint it,and forget about it.There is nothing springy going on out at that point in the spring.I used to have a bunch of replacement weld-on spring perches for the rear of the A's.You sawed the old worn out perch off,and welded the new part on.The part where you welded was already beveled for the weld,and you were back in business with a new spring shackle mount.They were made by the Funk Bros. company,and they came packed in wooden barrels.

 

[Planojc]

The job you did looks good to me and I would not hesitate to use it.

 

[8EL]

My thanks to all.....I would like to see what Pete wrote but for some reason it does not display. I have tried clicking on the 3 dots, what am I doing wrong?

 

[johnneilson]

From the picture you have an active suspension, I bet it hooks up good in left hand turns...
You needed to post the picture in the first post of the broken hanger.

J

 

[8EL]

Not following what you are saying here johnneilson, to what broken hangar post do you refer?

 

[goodcar]

With all due respect, Model A Fords can be money pits, but these are our babies, just like our pets. You adopt a puppy and then he gets plugged up because you left your socks on the floor, then spent a few grand to surgically get the sock removed. Same logic applies to the Model A. You do the best you can to take care of them within your means.

 

[johnneilson]

Not following what you are saying here johnneilson, to what broken hangar post do you refer?

Your post #20 in this thread
The axle spring hanger is broken wide open and the spring is riding on the housing
It explains why the worn spring not to mention the spot on top of the housing

J

 

[Phil Brown]

My thanks to all.....I would like to see what Pete wrote but for some reason, it does not display. I have tried clicking on the 3 dots, what am I doing wrong?

He edited his own post and deleted what was written

 

[Model "A" Fords]

I would weld it,grind it,paint it,and forget about it.There is nothing springy going on out at that point in the spring.I used to have a bunch of replacement weld-on spring perches for the rear of the A's.You sawed the old worn out perch off,and welded the new part on.The part where you welded was already beveled for the weld,and you were back in business with a new spring shackle mount.They were made by the Funk Bros. axlelcompany,and they came packed in wooden barrels.

Replacement perches were designed to be welded, but were not made from spring steel like the main leaf is.

 

[Keith True]

Thats true.But,at the underside of that spring eye there is no spring action going on.It is simply a fixed eye to hold the spring.Nothing structural is being worked on here,it is purely cosmeticI just don't buy that running a little filler weld into that part of the spring eye will ever be noticed by the action of the spring.If that was up over the top of the eye it would be a different story..Autocar used to make a real heavy rear suspension setup that would wear the axle housings where the springs rode.The tips of the springs would wear,and they had a spec for welding rod to build up the spring ends.But that was a sliding portion of the spring,not the flexing portion.

 

[Phil Brown]

The concern would be how far up did the heat go in the spring ?

 

[updraught]

I find the claims interesting that state they have never seen such wear as has been realized on my machine before. From a recent post "Rear spring perch fix procedure", the shackle has failed leaving the weight of the car to be born against the axle housing exclusively. In the photo given it clearly looks to me that the spring eye is being worn in the same manner as mine, why would it not?

I am also curious why Bob Bidone agrees that after welding the spring would not fail, he would replace it any way. I agree with Bob in his assessment of the impact the welding process would have on reliability. Also as can be seen from the photos I submitted, one will be unable to discern after painting the repaired spring from new, why then would you replace it any way?

That thread was about a perch that had completely collapsed. He said "I'm hoping that the shackle wasn't riding on the housing for too many miles, since the break in the perch is still Shiney and not rusted."
Old cars had a hard time here as they were usually cut into utes during the war. So this sort of thing is common.

 

[Model "A" Fords]

Thats true.But,at the underside of that spring eye there is no spring action going on.It is simply a fixed eye to hold the spring.Nothing structural is being worked on here,it is purely cosmeticI just don't buy that running a little filler weld into that part of the spring eye will ever be noticed by the action of the spring.If that was up over the top of the eye it would be a different story..Autocar used to make a real heavy rear suspension setup that would wear the axle housings where the springs rode.The tips of the springs would wear,and they had a spec for welding rod to build up the spring ends.But that was a sliding portion of the spring,not the flexing portion.

The concern would be how far up did the heat go in the spring ?

My last comment was that the perch and spring material when welded have different results.
Phil correctly considers the heat affected zone from welding which effects the properties.
In this case, from the photograph, the blue furthest from the weld indicates approximately 575 F, the color varying slightly due to surface preparation before heating.
I believe 8EL has more experience than first indicated which resulted in his repair that will be around for awhile.
Nice work 8EL!

 

[8EL]

That thread was about a perch that had completely collapsed. He said "I'm hoping that the shackle wasn't riding on the housing for too many miles, since the break in the perch is still Shiney and not rusted."
Old cars had a hard time here as they were usually cut into utes during the war. So this sort of thing is common.

That is what I was getting at, seemed like many such as yourself commented that they never saw the spring eye worn like mine. These cars are 90 plus years old, for all I know mine was driven like this also causing the wear noted. I posted that picture to show that there are probably many of these cars having this wear pattern.

 

[8EL]

I wish to thank all you fellows for taking the time to leave comments and concerns. The heat applied to do this padding build up was considerably less than an actual weldment employed to rejoin two pieces of parent metal however. 5160 can be welded in this manner (jointing) but heat becomes much more critical than what I did here.

ASTM publishes the following temperatures for these various procedural functions:

Heat Treatment 5160 is normally hardened in oil. Recommended quenching temperature is 1525 F, with a wide range of mechanical use available by tempering between 800 and 1300 F.

Forging Forge this grade between 2100 and 2200 F.

Annealing Heat to 1450 F and air cool.

As can be seen this part was kept well below stated temperatures in any critical region of the spring. I would not be going out of my way to be welding broken leafs back together in this material, but for the repair here it was I do believe well within reason all things being considered.

Have a nice evening to all

 

[bobbader]

Totally NOT UNUSUAL to find rear springs worn at the bottom of the eye. How many would you like? Also, as stated, this wear is unlikely to cause system failure once new shackles and bushings are in place. It sounds like you believe your main leaf is perfectly usable, why take a chance on another used spring that you have no history on? We all take parts off our cars to replace with better parts. But, there’s something in this crazy hobby that suggests we should not dispose of the “worse” part we just replaced. Then, about 10 years down the road, when someone needs one, we generously give it away with no compulsion as to it being imperfect enough to use on our personal vehicle. Huh? So, repair it to look correct with JB Weld or Bondo. Or, replace it with one from a reputable dealer like Eaton Springs (US Made) but know that they have gone up in price quite a bit over the last few years and you may have a long wait to get one.

 

[8EL]

What I see offered to replace spring shackle bushings, is a mandrel that is intended to be struck by a hammer to remove an install bushing. After installing reaming is required to make the hole round again as hammering it in caused it to become deformed. To avoid this I fashioned a tool to push out, and pull in the bushing utilizing the much more gradual force developed by thread (inclined plane). This worked out quite well, and given that the tolerance between the shackle bolt and the bushing inner diameter is large (slip fit), no reaming is required after installation.

The tool is made from hardened 4140 tool steel (carbide tooling necessary),
and utilizes a torrington thrust bearing with hardened washers between the stationary and turned (nut) members to prevent galling and reduce effort required to move load.









Final product...

 

[8EL]

What I see offered to replace spring shackle bushings, is a mandrel that is intended to be struck by a hammer to remove an install bushing. After installing reaming is required to make the hole round again as hammering it in caused it to become deformed. To avoid this I fashioned a tool to push out, and pull in the bushing utilizing the much more gradual force developed by thread (inclined plane). This worked out quite well, and given that the tolerance between the shackle bolt and the bushing inner diameter is large (slip fit), no reaming is required after installation.

The tool is made from hardened 4140 tool steel (carbide tooling necessary),
and utilizes a torrington thrust bearing and hardned washers between the stationary and turned (nut) members to prevent galling and reduce effort required to move load.


Final Product....

 

[8EL]

Did not think first reply went through, please disregard the duplication.....

 

[Model "A" Fords]

8EL, nice quality tool!
Could you show a dimensioned drawing with the bearing information so anyone can make there own tool or have their local machine shop make one.
Simple... don't hammer, therefore no rework. Great job!