Water Pump Question

johnr9q@yahoo.com

johnr9q@yahoo.com

Senior Member

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The modern bearing is supposed to be a light press-fit into the pump casting. The press-fit needs to be just enough to keep the bearing from spinning. Your press-fit is 0.003" and that is a bit much to force into cast iron. Put the bearing into a freezer for several hours and heat the pump casting. Then push the bearing into the casting. The pump shaft is also a press fit in the bearing, so freeze the shaft too.
 
There have be a whole *hitpot of "aftermarket" Model A pumps made. Some of these are "pretty close" to what Ford originally provided.

I've seen differences in the front bearing as you're finding. With the needles/collar they work fine. With a set "leak proof pump" bearing such as you're trying to use perhaps not so much.

And even from Ford there were "varieties." Some have mentioned the "early" pump which has a very small hole on the underside. Then Ford kind of stuck to a stuffed packing pump with a press-in bronze front sleeve - no needles. Then Ford produced the "more typical" stuffed packing pump with the most common sprung sleeve and needles. Then Ford had available (past Model A production) a "replacement" pump which embodied the V8 type impeller/seal and a bronze sleeve at the front.

I have two "tubular" water pumps - these were used on the Baldwin Gleaner (driven by a Model A Ford engine)

And there were others. Perhaps more than can be counted or perhaps "accounted" for. One of my oddballs has a thin metal cover about where today you would put the green leather splash cover on a more typical pump.

I suspect Model A water pumps were the "most commonly changed" Model A component. Almost like "I want to work on my car this weekend maybe I'll change the water pump?"

Were this mine I would retrograde back to the standard spring bushing and needles. Check out Vince Falter's water pump page - or listen to Tom Petty for relaxation. There have been some significant diameter variations on water pump shafts provided for replacement. Something about 4 to 5 thou small - which affects both bearings and seal.

Joe
 
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If you want to stay with the givens then machining is the next step. Bore or ream the pump casting ID .5 mils (.0005") smaller than the bearing OD. This will allow press fitting the bearing into the casting
 
I would hone it out for a light press fit and use "Bearing retainer", such as Loctite 648 Retaining Compound.
 
Check out the shaft. Original is 0.500. Vince at his now NOT FOUND page used to discuss the issue that most replacement shafts are done in stainless, and for some manufacturing anomaly these were all made 4 to 7 thousandths too small in diameter. Perhaps associated with the "rolling" process and how most of these start their overseas production life?

Mentioned/studied by Vince that prepared shafts of steel or stainless have issues with the front nose "taper" being formed on many with TWO tapers back to back. A manufacturing inconsistency again arising from the overseas source perhaps? Hard to get a prepared taper in the fan hub to sit consistently on a "duplex taper."

Vince had pump shafts turned down from "oversize" stock (9/16ths perhaps) and these were a lot more successful.

But that is a capability which most of us don't have.

One of my more successful pump rebuilds was done by installing a hardened Torrington "sleeve" on the pump shaft. A slightly small shaft can be "punch peined" to upset the surface and hold the sleeve central and in place. "Knurling" can have the same result. But this hardened sleeve fit the press-in "can" bearing (IIRC they are sold as "pairs" for exactly this purpose) perfectly. But it makes your pump necessary to be assembled using a press - and some forethought.

I may be duplicating the construction of the "Forever Pump." My direction came from one of the early "How to Restore Your Model A" MAFCA books.

At about 1/3rd the cost - which is the only advantage...

Joe K
 
johnr9q@yahoo.com said:
Thanks Bob Bidonde. I doubt that heating and freezing can eleminate a .003 diference.
Click to expand...

It will expand with heat and shrink with freezing ! If you don’t believe heat the housing then measure, freeze the bearing then measure ! The first time I saw this was helping install a yolk on an aircraft nose gear , my boss the mechanic said we need to be quick as when the temperatures equalized it went tink quickly !
 
I tend to look for a parts source that gives me more choice in available products for stuff like this. I also have sources that I trust more just due to my own personal experience. The water pump parts available are all over the place in quality and reliability. There are other types of front bearing to include the original Hyatt type roller with liner and the more modern ball bearing type which some folks choose for being heavy duty at least in theory. I still use the Hyatt type front bearing since it has a longer history of relatively reliable service. The bushing with the rubber seal still has a packing in case the seal craps out so a person can limp a while before going back into the pump. I do use the adjustable thrust sleeve on the front to prevent the shaft from futher wearing on the stub inside the cylinder head. It seams to keep the shaft in check pretty well.

So far, no source offers a carbon face seal on the wet side to eliminate the packing. This would be the most reliable type but it just hasn't happened yet. Maybe some day!
 
johnr9q@yahoo.com said:
Thanks Bob Bidonde. I doubt that heating and freezing can eleminate a .003 diference.
Click to expand...

A good example, at least for heating a part, is installing a ring gear on a Model A flywheel. Heat the gear, it "grows" and it falls on. After cooling, the starter spins the engine without the ring gear spinning on the flywheel.
 
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I'm in information overload. I am just going to buy a new one. What do you suggest:
From Mikes: A8501Z
From Snyders:
A-8502-B
A-8503-B
A-8501 (this one is probable the original?)

Looks like the differences are:
Greasless
Leakless
original
Stainless vs Brass nut
Sealed rear bushing assy w/stock pack nut
Pack nut contains graphite packing
Sealed ball bearings
Heaviest duty
Snout bored out
Sealed bearings
Snap ring in front to prevent end play
Cut down impeller
 
I know others are going to disagree, but I still prefer the original type of water pumps. When the original type starts weeping, tighten and/or add packing.

When a leakless pump starts leaking (and they do) on the road, what do you do? Replace it? Repair it? As listed in Snyder's, there are two or three different types. How do you know what type you have to buy parts for? Where do you get parts while on the road?

JMO but I'm stickin' with the original. Sometimes new is not better.
 
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rotorwrench said:
I tend to look for a parts source that gives me more choice in available products for stuff like this. I also have sources that I trust more just due to my own personal experience. The water pump parts available are all over the place in quality and reliability. There are other types of front bearing to include the original Hyatt type roller with liner and the more modern ball bearing type which some folks choose for being heavy duty at least in theory. I still use the Hyatt type front bearing since it has a longer history of relatively reliable service. The bushing with the rubber seal still has a packing in case the seal craps out so a person can limp a while before going back into the pump. I do use the adjustable thrust sleeve on the front to prevent the shaft from futher wearing on the stub inside the cylinder head. It seams to keep the shaft in check pretty well.

So far, no source offers a carbon face seal on the wet side to eliminate the packing. This would be the most reliable type but it just hasn't happened yet. Maybe some day!
Click to expand...




A new water pump, which looks original and features a Carbon/Ceramic face seal, will soon be available. I will post more details in the thread titled "I need a job".

The new water pump uses 3 deep groove ball bearings that are sealed for life, and the same face seal that is used in Ford 2.3 (140), 2.5 (153), 3.0 (183), 3.3 (200), 3.8 (231), 4.1 (250), 4.2 (255), 5.0(302), 5.8 (351), 6.6 (400), and 7.5 (460) engines. This face seal is also used in water pumps for American Motors, General Motors, and Chrysler engines.
 
Ford "original" Model A replacement pump from the 1930s. Utilizes the "face seal" popularized originally in the two manifold mounted V8 water pumps. The impeller appears the same as the V8 pump.

Note the absence of a "gland."

Below an Ebay pix so it won't last, but the Model A pumps are still found in quantity at your local antique auto flea market. There are like three of these shown by three separate sellers on Ebay.

s-l140.jpg


I'm not sure such a pump can be rebuilt because of parts availability.

Correction: CW Moss carries the "rebuild kit" for the flathead V8 pump. Stub shaft appears adapted to the flathead pair of pumps and would require re-adaptation to the long shaft Model A pump.

https://cwmoss.com/products/water-pump-rebuilding-kit-1932-36?currency=USD&variant=15810957180971&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google%20Shopping&stkn=84a2ee9e6111&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=21347078099&gclid=CjwKCAiAzOXMBhASEiwAe14SaUKDNTT0AaP9_Vpq-3luCewa6yyN5mURLerqG2mGjIuy5tvaRt524hoC46UQAvD_BwE

Joe K
 
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