Water Pump Flow Rate
- Thread starter Biggles
- Start date
KGS
Well-known member
Here is a post from GM that may answer your question.
I have built a water pump test machine, tested the flow of pumps and did controled tests of engines for hundreds of hours over a 10 years period on flat head Ford engines. The results I state are tested, documented and proven not what "I think", "Should happen" or WAGs. Why don't you make provisions to add 5 gallons of water into the system, run some tests and report accual results. On the first pump impeller modification on the 33 phaeton which was over heating Purple Ice was first instaledl after 8 or 10 static tests under the same controled conditions everytime. The over heating was the same everytime with the temperature going to 229 with the cap off and would spit 3 or 4 quarts of water. When the Purple Ice was installed the temperature went to 217 sat there about 10 minutes and the temperature came down slowly over a 20 minute period to 207. This was obserbed on a laser pointed gun as the temperature dropped. Every time we ran it after that it only went to 207. That being to hot I modified the impeller on one 33 head mounted pump. On the water pump test machine the stock 32 to 36 pumps deliver 55 gallons each in 5 minutes. This modified pump showed 92 gallons in 5 minutes. Only having one pump it was installed on the right head and the test was repeated. The flat head engine has two separate cooling systems, left and right connected only in the radiator. On this test the right side water comming out of the modified pump to the radiator was 180 and the left side with the stock pump was close to 207. The modified pump was swapped to the left side and the left side ran at 180 and the right side went up to 207. As far as I was concerned this was positive proof that more water pumped through the system was the solution to cool these engines. Without any hesitation I had a multible impeller pattern made and had a foundry cast the new imellers. The rest is proven results by the thousands of people who installed these pumps with most engines running in the range of 25 to 30 degrees cooler. The 37 to 53 pumps was more difficult. At least 10 differant style impellers were made and tested on the machine over a long period of time with no or very little improvement to increased water flow. These were never tried on engines as I knew from the 33 impeller what the results would have been. I got the idea of a turbine type impeller and it took about a week to machine it. The body of the pump also needed to be machined to the same 22 degree angle as the impeller for the impeller to be most efficiant. The clearance between the impeller is critical and every pump is carefully set for shaft clearance, impeller clearance and spring pressure of the seal. Each pump is tested for at least 5 minutes on the test machine for gallons pumped and leaks. At the end of the test 15 pounds of pressure is put in the system to check for any leaks should the pressure get to high in the system when on the engine. The stock 37 to 53 pumps deliver 65 gallons each in 5 minutes some 49 to 53s may go up as high as 70 gallons in 5 minutes. The modified pumps with the turbine impeller deliver 92 gallons in 5 minutes. With the controled clearances every pump tested delivers the desired 92 gallons. There have been some exceptions. These were some of these new after market pumps that were sent in to be modified. After being modified the flow was down in the 50 gallon range. The pumps were disassembled and random deposits of cast iron material was found internally in the pumps blocking the water passages. A hole was drilled in the bottom and with a long shaft carbide tool the excessive material was removed and the hole welded. These pumps were reassembled, retested and came up to the 92 gallon flow requirement. Pumps that are mass produced, not flow tested, shipped and installed for the end user to test may not work as good as the old pumps that were replaced. G.M.
I have built a water pump test machine, tested the flow of pumps and did controled tests of engines for hundreds of hours over a 10 years period on flat head Ford engines. The results I state are tested, documented and proven not what "I think", "Should happen" or WAGs. Why don't you make provisions to add 5 gallons of water into the system, run some tests and report accual results. On the first pump impeller modification on the 33 phaeton which was over heating Purple Ice was first instaledl after 8 or 10 static tests under the same controled conditions everytime. The over heating was the same everytime with the temperature going to 229 with the cap off and would spit 3 or 4 quarts of water. When the Purple Ice was installed the temperature went to 217 sat there about 10 minutes and the temperature came down slowly over a 20 minute period to 207. This was obserbed on a laser pointed gun as the temperature dropped. Every time we ran it after that it only went to 207. That being to hot I modified the impeller on one 33 head mounted pump. On the water pump test machine the stock 32 to 36 pumps deliver 55 gallons each in 5 minutes. This modified pump showed 92 gallons in 5 minutes. Only having one pump it was installed on the right head and the test was repeated. The flat head engine has two separate cooling systems, left and right connected only in the radiator. On this test the right side water comming out of the modified pump to the radiator was 180 and the left side with the stock pump was close to 207. The modified pump was swapped to the left side and the left side ran at 180 and the right side went up to 207. As far as I was concerned this was positive proof that more water pumped through the system was the solution to cool these engines. Without any hesitation I had a multible impeller pattern made and had a foundry cast the new imellers. The rest is proven results by the thousands of people who installed these pumps with most engines running in the range of 25 to 30 degrees cooler. The 37 to 53 pumps was more difficult. At least 10 differant style impellers were made and tested on the machine over a long period of time with no or very little improvement to increased water flow. These were never tried on engines as I knew from the 33 impeller what the results would have been. I got the idea of a turbine type impeller and it took about a week to machine it. The body of the pump also needed to be machined to the same 22 degree angle as the impeller for the impeller to be most efficiant. The clearance between the impeller is critical and every pump is carefully set for shaft clearance, impeller clearance and spring pressure of the seal. Each pump is tested for at least 5 minutes on the test machine for gallons pumped and leaks. At the end of the test 15 pounds of pressure is put in the system to check for any leaks should the pressure get to high in the system when on the engine. The stock 37 to 53 pumps deliver 65 gallons each in 5 minutes some 49 to 53s may go up as high as 70 gallons in 5 minutes. The modified pumps with the turbine impeller deliver 92 gallons in 5 minutes. With the controled clearances every pump tested delivers the desired 92 gallons. There have been some exceptions. These were some of these new after market pumps that were sent in to be modified. After being modified the flow was down in the 50 gallon range. The pumps were disassembled and random deposits of cast iron material was found internally in the pumps blocking the water passages. A hole was drilled in the bottom and with a long shaft carbide tool the excessive material was removed and the hole welded. These pumps were reassembled, retested and came up to the 92 gallon flow requirement. Pumps that are mass produced, not flow tested, shipped and installed for the end user to test may not work as good as the old pumps that were replaced. G.M.
rotorwrench
Well-known member
There is a fellow that rebuilds pumps with his own design impeller (George "Skip" Haney) and he is the only one I know of that flowed the different pumps to see how his design impeller compared to the original. A person can contact him for the info but there may be a thread on the subject on this board. Finding it might take a while though.
There may be differences between the different types of pumps as well. The early outlet pumps that were mounted on the head from 1932 through 1936 would likely be different that the 78 type pumps that came out in 1937 and ran through 1948. There are different pumps in the 8BA era for Ford cars, Mercury cars, and pickups, They al likely have a similar flow but they have distinctly different shapes & mountings.
There may be differences between the different types of pumps as well. The early outlet pumps that were mounted on the head from 1932 through 1936 would likely be different that the 78 type pumps that came out in 1937 and ran through 1948. There are different pumps in the 8BA era for Ford cars, Mercury cars, and pickups, They al likely have a similar flow but they have distinctly different shapes & mountings.
I would like to add that since the new turbine impeller has been
used and tested for a number of years every 1937 to 1953 pump
delivers 110 gallons after being modified and tested. Every pump
Skip does is tested on a water pump test machine. Also Skip has
been doing the pumps for 20 years and NO ONE has ever been
charged for repairs. G.M.
used and tested for a number of years every 1937 to 1953 pump
delivers 110 gallons after being modified and tested. Every pump
Skip does is tested on a water pump test machine. Also Skip has
been doing the pumps for 20 years and NO ONE has ever been
charged for repairs. G.M.
Ol' Ron
Well-known member
The Bob Drake pumps I have. Have a curves impeller. Much different than stock. I only bought them because of the price, I didn't have any 8ba pumps to have rebuilt, looked for used ones but nobody had them. or didn't want to part with them. so I got the Drake ones for 112 bucks for the pair. Never used 8ba pumps before.
Biggles
Member
G.M. Your research is instructive - thank you for that, and thanks to KGS for the steer to it. I know that Skip does good work.
Frank: will you point me to that specification; I've scoured Ford specs but never found it. Please?
Barners never cease to amaze me by their access to knowledge.
I'm very pleased to be here.
Frank: will you point me to that specification; I've scoured Ford specs but never found it. Please?
Barners never cease to amaze me by their access to knowledge.
I'm very pleased to be here.
frnkeore
Well-known member
You'll find it on page 792 of Ford V8 Cars and Trucks.
It appears that the head mounted trucks had larger vanes. They are rated a 40 GPM.
I have truck pumps, I believe. If anyone has car pumps, I can compare my mine with them.
When they moved the pumps to the block, those pumps put out 45 GPM.
It appears that the head mounted trucks had larger vanes. They are rated a 40 GPM.
I have truck pumps, I believe. If anyone has car pumps, I can compare my mine with them.
When they moved the pumps to the block, those pumps put out 45 GPM.
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Ronnieroadster
Well-known member
Pump free flow rates can impress but factoring in the radiator core the type of head gaskets and heads can create a big problem. The entire package is important my 2 cents worth of info. At least thats what I have learned doing this stuff for a very long time now in real world use.
Ronnieroadster
Ronnieroadster
frnkeore
Well-known member
Has anyone done experiments on the flow pattern (other than Ford) of the V8?
I believe the biggest draw back for these engines, is the fact that they run the exhaust system through the water passage and that heats the water and creates a flow blockage. I don't think pump volume is the issue.
I know that there was a recommended enlarging of the two center block holes, to 5/8 & 3/4" on early and flowing more water to the rear of the 48-53 engines but even the 48-53 engines over heat more than most OHV V8's and inline FH engines that don't run the exhaust threw the water system.
In the 80's, I use to make a SBC water pump that ran a 2 1/4" impeller at direct engine speed. I had a few engine builders that told me that they didn't think there was a water pump available, that moved the water slow enough to over heat a SBC. That was a 8000 rpm at full load. Much more heat (BTU) than a early V8 has to cool.
It seems to me, that experimenting in this area could bring benefits to all.
Frank
I believe the biggest draw back for these engines, is the fact that they run the exhaust system through the water passage and that heats the water and creates a flow blockage. I don't think pump volume is the issue.
I know that there was a recommended enlarging of the two center block holes, to 5/8 & 3/4" on early and flowing more water to the rear of the 48-53 engines but even the 48-53 engines over heat more than most OHV V8's and inline FH engines that don't run the exhaust threw the water system.
In the 80's, I use to make a SBC water pump that ran a 2 1/4" impeller at direct engine speed. I had a few engine builders that told me that they didn't think there was a water pump available, that moved the water slow enough to over heat a SBC. That was a 8000 rpm at full load. Much more heat (BTU) than a early V8 has to cool.
It seems to me, that experimenting in this area could bring benefits to all.
Frank
JSeery
Member Emeritus
Flathead Fords really don't have an overheating problem if everything is clean and working properly. Without thermostats they often run around 160 deg, which is too cool, thus thermostats. Some heating problems can be traced to a lot of crud left over from the casting process or accumulated over the years. When you clean the water jackets it is unbelievable how much is in some of these blocks! The next common issue is the radiator, cleaning and rodding out a radiator makes a world of difference. Clean blocks with good radiators and proper fans, shielding, good functioning water pumps, ect, just don't have overheating problems and (like any engine) benefit from running at a higher temperature than they would without thermostats.
Blackfinger
Junior Member
Are there any other manufacturers out there using turbine style impellers on the 8ba pumps? When I pulled mine out, they were trash, but had turbine impellers. I'm wondering if these are old Haney rebuilds. I sent them to Skip with a money order, and am on pins and needles til they are back in my engine bay.
FlatheadTed
Well-known member
I have tested the early pumps I was surprised how much they flowed at 1400RPM I got a good stream of water out about two feet ,(didn't have a flow meter ) I agree with the above they don't really have a heating problem ,its to do with radiator efficiency crud ect Ford offered different radiators (thicker ) for hotter climates , they sometimes can benefit from a extra row of tubes in the ones we use .In the stock cars days they removed every second pump fin I believe this was to stop flow over at high revs , electric fans often don't flow enough ,
FlatheadTed
Well-known member
Were high flow pumps benefits things is when the Radiator is inefficient it will force the water through but you will need a over flow valve or heeder ,
frnkeore
Well-known member
Regarding my response above, what are the general feelings of the effect of running the exhaust threw the water jacketing and the effect of the center exhaust passage, both blocking the water flow to the rear cylinders and also heating the water as the two other ports do?
In my almost 75 years, I've heard many story's about block cracking and to always look out for it also, regardless of thermostat or not, they have a tendency to to run hot, under extended heavy loads. Radiator condition and block cleanliness effect all engine types but, the V8 has historically suffer more from it.
I've also read accounts of overheating, on this forum, when running on longer tracks, that would mean higher speeds with more air flow, threw the radiator but, a longer load period on the engine.
In my almost 75 years, I've heard many story's about block cracking and to always look out for it also, regardless of thermostat or not, they have a tendency to to run hot, under extended heavy loads. Radiator condition and block cleanliness effect all engine types but, the V8 has historically suffer more from it.
I've also read accounts of overheating, on this forum, when running on longer tracks, that would mean higher speeds with more air flow, threw the radiator but, a longer load period on the engine.
FlatheadTed
Well-known member
Its a good topic ,I have spent sometime experimenting with thermostats and with out , , fans ,shrouds, testing pumps ,caps catch cans, header tanks ,Electric fans ,flowing the water back wards .Most engines the run exhaust out the side 2" or so its just that the Flathead runs it out a bit further it does add some heat but the Radiator is thicker to compensate its about a 3rd thicker than say a Chev 6 ,Water is sucked or pumped through the lower part of the block then forced forward , I don't think the ports block it that much its the way all moters have them When they changed over to the 37 block they did wind tunnel testing Emil Zoreline was given the job of sorting the heating problems out with a wind tunnel he helped it by fitting the pumps in the block to push water to create a high pressure Zone,
Tinker
Well-known member
There are wedges that can be installed to separate the center. It's a valve in block. There is some potential for overheating due to space. A good clean block, clean rad, and tuning is helpful. But I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. Limiting the radiator volume wouldn't be helpful.
There was a reason Cadillac flatheads exhausted out the top of the block.
Boiling a pint of water vs a gallon will take longer no matter how fast you stir it. Stirring might help.
I good design in my opinion for venting water throughout the block. As water flows. Don't mind the copper.
Skip is a goto rebuilder. If you have early flathead head mounted pumps, they are getting harder to find.
.
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frnkeore
Well-known member
Believe me, I'm not throwing out the baby!
What I'm trying to address is the basic reason that the V8 over heats under longer load periods. If you don't know the cause, you can't do any work a rounds to it.
You can't change the design but, it helps to understand the design. That picture of with the 8BA heads, installed backward, I'm sure is a attempt to get a engine to have a more stable flow.
Has anyone tried to route the flow to the back of the block, by restricting the front transfer holes? It seems like the reversed 8BA heads and restricted front transfer holes would help, maybe a lot in long loading cycles.
Tinker, those 21 stud heads look awesome. Do you know anything about them and who made them?
What I'm trying to address is the basic reason that the V8 over heats under longer load periods. If you don't know the cause, you can't do any work a rounds to it.
You can't change the design but, it helps to understand the design. That picture of with the 8BA heads, installed backward, I'm sure is a attempt to get a engine to have a more stable flow.
Has anyone tried to route the flow to the back of the block, by restricting the front transfer holes? It seems like the reversed 8BA heads and restricted front transfer holes would help, maybe a lot in long loading cycles.
Tinker, those 21 stud heads look awesome. Do you know anything about them and who made them?