Vin
- Thread starter mattgic
- Start date
Phil Brown
Well-known member
Depends on the state that your trying to register it in, some apparently use the number on the side of the engine and others like Calif. Use the number on the frame. Some cars may also have a "VIN" registration tag that was attached usually in the door jamb area by the state that is used if no #'s are legible to use
eagle
Well-known member
You are going to stir the hornets nest with this question, I predict! Short answer, when the Model A was built, the frame number and the engine number matched. Few of the existing As have their original engine, and when the replacement engine was installed the many times the mechanic failed to restamp the replacement engine with the correct number. So then, you get a vin discrepancy between the title and the engine. Solution to this is look on the frame, however this involves lifting the body off of the frame to see. Soooo, just make sure the number from the title matches the engine number. All is good. If not, MAKE it so. Now bring on the naysayers, carring on about changing VIN, etc etc. The VIN was assigned at the factory, make sure that the engine number matches, all is good. If you make up your own VIN or use one fraudulently, that's not cool.
Gary WA
Well-known member
motor or frame! But motors have been change thru out life of a model a. Thanks to supplier of picture.
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Jim Mason
Well-known member
ModelA29
Well-known member
The Serial number of the Model A was the number stamped on the engine. Period end of subject.
That number was also stamped on the frame (of most of the US built cars) before the body was installed. You need to disassemble the car to see it so that discounts it's use by DMV or law enforcement as a easily verifiable number.
If your Calif car was titled in the past using the engine number that is fine. If you are seeking a new title for an out of state car or one built from parts. Newer DMV personnel are clueless. Not seeing a frame number they will add a state assigned number. Being even more clueless they will affix that tag to the removable body not the chassis assuming all cars are unibody.
That number was also stamped on the frame (of most of the US built cars) before the body was installed. You need to disassemble the car to see it so that discounts it's use by DMV or law enforcement as a easily verifiable number.
If your Calif car was titled in the past using the engine number that is fine. If you are seeking a new title for an out of state car or one built from parts. Newer DMV personnel are clueless. Not seeing a frame number they will add a state assigned number. Being even more clueless they will affix that tag to the removable body not the chassis assuming all cars are unibody.
Rocky Rocket
Junior Member
DMV? Not likely. ModelA29 is correct.
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Well-known member
Yeah, ...I'm not so sure that will be a correct answer.
To the original poster, your question is very ambiguous -and therefore you will be getting many answers that vary in validity. The Ford Factories (-the proper term for those were called Branches by Ford) technically did not issue a VIN to the vehicles they produced. This was solely done at the Rouge facility prior to any assembly of vehicles when they stamped the Engine.
To expound on this, each Engine that passed final inspection at the Rouge was stamped with a sequential number. Information on this is found in the daily Foreman's Logs. After final tests (-Q/C) and the sequential stamping had been performed, the completed Engine assemblies were then warehoused for shipping to one of the many Ford Branches at a later time. Something to note, -at the time of shipping the Engines generally (-i.e. most often) were not shipped sequentially even though that might have been the intent, ...nor were these numbered engines installed sequentially on the assembly line once they had been warehoused at the individual Branches. Understand this further by looking at the picture below.
When the Agencies (-a/k/a Dealers) received the vehicle, it was acquired without any Certificate of Title and was only transferred with a document that today we know as a MSO (Manufacturers Statement of Origin). To be clear, many States at that time did not issue Titles to the purchaser, -and some States even issued a Title to the Purchaser listing the 'year model' at the time the vehicle was actually sold by the Agency, ...which could hypothetically mean that a 1929 model year vehicle that was sold (-for the first time) months afterward in 1930 or 1931 could have been titled as a 1930 or 31 respectively.
Now to muddy up the advice given above, we DO know that while Ford's protocol to the Branch's was to stamp the frame with the same number as was on the installed Engine, we also know this did not always happen for various reasons. This has been documented. Therefore, the ONLY absolute was the first Engine that was installed into the Chassis while on the assembly line had an Identification Number. If someone is making a legal argument about the proper VIN, it really is the Engine's number.
Protocols and mandates have changed since the Model-A was produced, and a great legal argument can be made that for the 1928-1931 Ford Model-A, the Engine number IS the VIN, -and lifting the body to check for a Frame number is solely for the purpose to verify if any tampering has been done in the past.
I testified on the behalf of one client that in modern day vehicles, we find the VIN has been affixed to hoods, fenders, doors, and many other components on the vehicle. By installing a used hood from a vehicle onto another vehicle with a different VIN does not change the VIN for the vehicle it was installed on. I went on to explain that if a Model-A received frame damage sometime in its past, replacing the frame assembly with a used but serviceable frame from a different vehicle was an accepted and legal practice. At that point, the Judge ruled that if the different number on the frame was not presently being used, then the engine's VIN would serve as the proper VIN for the vehicle.
My point in this lengthy post is, often times hearsay and 'he said/she said' info is stated enough times where people choose to regard it as factual. The Model-A hobby is seemingly one of the worst at posting this 'stuff' on social media. Just because your local DMV office says one thing does not mean it is factual. Often times laying out the facts in front of a Judge changes everything, ..and at which time the DMV abides by the Judge's orders.
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Brad in Germany
Well-known member
brokenspoke
Senior Member
Bingo Brad
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rich b
Well-known member
In other words "How to open a bag of snakes".
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Well-known member
Brad is definitely correct -HOWEVER, many States often have rules that contradict what was written in the Instruction Book ...or what the protocol was back in 1931 and before.
Secondly, in Tennessee for example, the DMV often requires a State Trooper to come to a location of the vehicle to inspect & verify the correct VIN is legibly stamped onto the Frame. I have shown many Troopers the exact page that Brad has shown in the Model "A" Instruction Book when they are doing this type inspection. More often than not, I have been met with resistance from the Trooper. Their interpretation of that sentence is the word "also" signifies there was an additional number stamped elsewhere on the vehicle ( Frame). That is why I said what I did in my post above about instances where the Frame inadvertently was not stamped, ...and as such the word "also" really does not apply in every instance.
At this point, the Trooper generally tells the new Car Owner their options of either a new VIN will be issued for their vehicle, -or the Car Owner can take this discrepancy before a local Judge and explain to him/her why the numbers either do not match, -or why there is only the number on the Engine. Most of the time the Judge rules on the side of common sense when the facts are laid out before them. It has been my experiences that most of the time this is not the case with the DMV.
ModelA29
Well-known member
Unfortunately about every DMV clerk I've ever dealt with has their own opinion and way of doing things. They also get very irate and surely when you ask them to crack open the book or check with their supervisor for the "real answer".
Bruce of MN
Well-known member
A friend bought a new car in Illinois, moved to Florida a few years later, then moved back. At he DMV they wanted to charge him sales tax again and it took appealing to a supervisor to escape the second taxing.
BRENT in 10-uh-C
Well-known member
The key to that ignorance is it is a 'Sales' tax meant to collect a tax based on the percentage of the Sale. If the person wanting to register it was already the owner, then there was not any Sale to tax.
It is truly amazing how "dumb downed" our society has become where Common Sense is not at all common anymore. I jokingly (-but not jokingly) blame it on Smart Phones, and Safety Stickers that are required by our Government for the general lack of Common Sense. If someone needs a warning label telling them Do Not Stick their Fingers in the Fan, then maybe it would be better if they did so where they would be a walking warning to all their socioeconomic friends of like mind that JR stuck his hand into the radiator fam while the engine was operating and he is now missing his trigger finger. I honestly think this country would see our average IQ levels rise over the next decade or so.
Planojc
Well-known member
Here in Texas, cars made up through 1931 use the engine number as the vin. 1932 and up use the frame stamped number. I just went through the bonded title process here on my Model A and that's what the inspector told me. I assume they do it this way due to the location of the stamped number which is hard to get to on a Model A. Other states may have a totally different process.