VIN Number/frame dating help

[Freisland]

Transfering my Dad's Model A title to CA I had to uncover the frame #. The last 6 digits and the star are pretty clear: 505654* but the first digit is confusing. (See pix below) I can only make out the top clearly. Looks like maybe a 2? But it should be a "3" but the fonts for the "3" on Model A motor stamps seem to have a flat top. There's also odd spacing between it and the rest of the frame #s.

From the Fender/Splashguard style (and my Dad's claim) I always assumed it was a 30. The engine is an early 31 (A4375581*) but we know that doesn't mean much. Anyway, I've put in a pix below - best I can manage with a slim clearance. My guesses are:
1) It's 2505654, which is an Oct. '29 frame, and over the years got a 30 body (or '30 fender/splashguard) put on it?
2) It's 3505654 and they used a different style "3" stamp on the frame. (the May 1930 date of that engine # makes the most sense.)
3) It was stamped/restamped later for some reason using different fonts
4) Could it be a "B"..?
5) It's an unrelated imprint from a clamp etc, but then we're still missing a digit.

Anyone who's seen more of these numbers than I want to venture a best guess? (Is there a quick way to tell a 30 frame from a 29, short of measuring some of the holes/mounts?)
Thanks (again) in advance. Not a big issues, CHP will title it either way, but just curious if anyone has a good idea on the situation.

 

[Bob C]

The three had a flat top in both the old and new number styles.
Post a picture of the emergency brake cross shaft, that may help
identify the frame time period.

 

[john charlton]

1928 and 1929 frames the holes for the steering gear is punched both sides for LHD and RHD .the 30/31 frames are stamped one side only for whatever hand they are .There is a window in early 1930 where a 1930 frame can be stamped both sides but these are rare .

John in Suffolk County England .

 

[1930artdeco]

Hello and welcome to the barn! Couple of things:

1) May want to put a location in so a nearby member can help.
2) As far as splash aprons go, they are all solid pieces except for about 6 months of 1930.

That being said, if the frame was damaged it could have been swapped, aprons swapped, body swapped etc. A lot can happen in 90 years.

Mike

 

[Mister Moose]

The 30/31 frames are stamped one side only for whatever hand they are .There is a window in early 1930 where a 1930 frame can be stamped both sides but these are rare .

As a data point, I have a 30 with an engine/frame date of second week of Dec '29. The frame is only drilled for left side steering.

 

[Freisland]

Thanks to everyone who weighed in, also via PM. I can't message back yet. I'm in LA SFV area. Attached are a couple of pix. The end of the e-brake cross-piece, two of the side of the frame where the attachments are, one of the pedal area and lower firewall and more angles of the numbers. Dunno if these suggest anything. Really just trying to figure out the missing number on the frame so I can get a CA-compatible VIN. Can go with "3" if that is not taken, but I wonder what it "really" is. I wonder if it's a 2? And again, thanks in advance.

 

[BAL1962]

Just for a reference I highlighted the numbers on this frame. You can clearly see the difference between the 3 and the 2 and look at that spacing!

 

[Freisland]

Thanks Bali1962. That looks like a Friday at 5 stamping! Wish I could get the chassis up a big higher but don't want to disconnect any more stuff. Already bent the front corner of the frame a little at the bolt. I think I'll go with the "2" That would make it an Oct. 21st engine build, which would make the frame either a late '29 or '30. I'll register it as a '30 since that what's on the title my dad has, and assume the engine sat someplace for 2 or 3 months before getting dropped in. Thanks to all.

 

[jw hash]

the car has a 30 body on it. if the last six numbers match the title, I would go with what ever the title says.

 

[Freisland]

Unfortunately the title has no numbers that reflect anything on the car, so we went with "3" as that matches the body. It's possible it was a "2" and an Oct 21 '29 engine that sat a while, but it's also possible the number is completely "erased" by time, so "3" it is.


Appreciate all the help. I'm really going to need you all when I attack the weird "update" Dad did to the GAV/choke and connection to the Carb... But not just yet.

 

[katy]

It's 2505654, which is an Oct. '29 frame,

Oct. 29 production would be a 1930 model.

 

[Bob C]

I think it is a 2 as you can see the 3 would have a flat top.

 

[john charlton]

Hi Mr Moose I have a very early 30 or very late 29 frame under my 30 P/U it has both sides drilled and it has the "low rad pads" front cross member which has not been changed .It has the early style emergency brake cross shaft . I do not have the original frame number it was not legible it would have been interesting to compare it with yours . It came out of a 30 tudor with "eyebrow" fenders which was rodded .

John in same place same weather .

 

[rotorwrench]

If the frame is not badly corrosion pitted, stampings can be brought up using the correct forensic procedures. The steel has a more dense grain in the outline of the original stamping imprint much like a forging process. This allows for it to be forensically identified even if it was sanded down. Police agencies use the procedure to identify weapons that have has the serial numbers removed. Certain acids will react more quickly to the softer surface that has not been imprinted than it will to the imprint which raises and restores the stamped characters. I'm not sure what acid it favored though.

I generally try a pencil rubbing first. It will somtimes bring out the unseen parts of a stamped character. Few model A bodies have a VIN/seriel number unless it was added. Some bodies have a body number but not near all of them do. It just depends on when and by what branch or subcontractor built it.

 

[Freisland]

Thanks Katy. Good to know. So it was originally an Oct 21, 1929 engine put on the frame in early 30, I guess. Appreciate the feedback all.