Very, very strange!

J

Joe Shell

Member
Hi guys,

I have a 1936 Ford Cabriolet which Was restored about 10 years ago. I purchased this car in October of 2012. It has basically been very reliable and runs and drives great.

This afternoon it was nice and sunny on Long Island , NY. So I backed the car out of my garage to put up the top. While I was sitting behind the wheel letting the engine warm up, I heard something snap and the engine stalled. At the time the transmission was in neutral and my foot was not touching the clutch pedal. When I tried to start the engine the starter would not turn over. It was as if I was trying to start the car in gear without depressing the clutch. I made sure the shift was in the neutral position and tried again. Same result as if the engine was stuck for some reason. I left the shift lever in neutral and tried to start the engine again but this time with the clutch pedal pushed down to the floor. The engine started and ran fine but as soon as I took my foot off the clutch the engine stalled. The transmission shift lever was in the neutral position. I started the engine again I with the transmission in first, second and high gear and when I took my foot of the clutch pedal, the engine stalled without the car moving at all. The only way I could move the car was if the clutch was depressed.

Fortunately my daughter and son in law were coming for dinner. My daughter got in the car, held the clutch pedal to the floor, while my son in law and I pushed the car back into the garage.

I'm baffled by this and can't figure out what happened so suddenly. Could it be that something jammed the transmission? The car has a Columbia but that does not appear to be part of this problem.

I have not had a chance to look under the car to see if anything looks abnormal, I'll try to do that tomorrow.

Anyone have any ideas on what might have happened?

As usual, any suggestions or thoughts will be appreciated.

Thanks and a happy and healthy new year to all Ford Barners.


Joe
 
Sounds like the bearing between the input and output shaft of your transmission might have failed
 
Sounds like something in the transmission has jammed and what ever it is even locking it in neutral. I would definitely think transmission.
 
A good guess would be that there is a problem with the shift forks or transmission tower that allowed two gears to be engaged at the same time. This would lock up the transmission, preventing the engine to crank until the clutch was released. Then, when the clutch is engaged, the engine stalls because the drive train is stuck. I've seen it more than once.
 
supereal said:
A good guess would be that there is a problem with the shift forks or transmission tower that allowed two gears to be engaged at the same time. This would lock up the transmission, preventing the engine to crank until the clutch was released. Then, when the clutch is engaged, the engine stalls because the drive train is stuck. I've seen it more than once.
Click to expand...

The kicker about that scenario (with the clutch depressed to push the car) is that the input shaft is turning while being pushed. He said his daughter had to hold the clutch pedal down to push it in garage. DD
 
>>>I heard something snap and the engine stalled. At the time the transmission was in neutral and my foot was not touching the clutch pedal.>>>

I'll guess a synchromesh let loose. Jack rearend up off the ground. Start engine. See if it'll shift without grinding. VanPelt can prolly make a better guess if he sees this.

Jack E/NJ
 
Almost would have to be the roller bearing for the main shaft
that is inside the input shaft. If it was something jamming the
gears then you wouldn't be able to roll the car with the clutch
pedal pushed in I don't think.

Bob
 
Joe,
Doesn't that just bite ?
At some point the floor board trans cover and shift tower will have to be
removed. It be great if by some miracle the trans is somehow jammed in two gears
because of a failure confined to the shift tower. Yank the cover and tower and give
it a look....here's hoping one of the 1/8 dia pins that attach the forks to the rails
worked its way out and let a fork go where it got into trouble.
Charlie ny
 
Thanks Charlie. After thinking about the problem I'm fairly sure something in the transmission is jammed and keeping the input shaft of the transmission fr turning. If the problem is what You and Supetral suggest, I may be Abel to fix it myself with the help of some of the guys in our efv8 regional group. Thanks again.

Joe
 
Puzzling to be sure. You rolled the car back into the garage so it appears the rear end gears and driveshaft are turning freely. Pushing the clutch pedal in separated the engine from the trans correctly allowing the car to roll. That means the trans output shaft was also turning freely. I rather doubt that the trans was locked into two gears at the same time since you didn't move the shifter while you were sitting there with the engine idling.

It seems the input shaft of the trans is locked up. When in neutral, with the clutch pedal up, the engine flywheel and clutch is spinning the input shaft of the trans. In neutral the input shaft is spinning the cluster gear, the second gear on the mainshaft, and the reverse idler gear. If something broke off and fell into the mesh of any of these gears, they would lock up. If any of the bearings that support these gears seized up, they could have locked up.

You could remove the shifter housing to look for an obvious problem with the forks,but I suspect you will have to pull the trans for a tear down.
 
I think the pin that holds the clutch shaft in place broke. This is the shaft that make the throwout bearing go back and forth. Check Van Pelts site for a picture.Unfortunately you have to remove the trans to fix it. I used a grade five bolt to replace the pin with some loctite.
 
Bob C said:
Almost would have to be the roller bearing for the main shaft
that is inside the input shaft. If it was something jamming the
gears then you wouldn't be able to roll the car with the clutch
pedal pushed in I don't think.

Bob
Click to expand...

Yes. Agree.

Neal
 
This sounds familiar although after 45 years I forget some of the details . My 39 Deluxe became locked up this way. AFter removing the floorboards and transmission top I found a small piece, likely a broken gear tooth, stuck in the gears. I removed the broken piece, re-assembled and it was fine. Still works today with no noticeable problems.
 
Further to my original post on this problem, the car does roll if the transmission is in neutral.

The shift lever feels normal and seems to shift into all positions smoothly. Looks to me like something is keeping the trans input shaft from moving.

I will try to remove shift tower and take a look inside.

From what I understand, removing a transmission on a 36 is a big job. I' taken ****** out of a 1949 Ford but that's easy compared to a 36, right?

Thanks to all who have responded.

Joe
 
RalphG said:
This sounds familiar although after 45 years I forget some of the details . My 39 Deluxe became locked up this way. AFter removing the floorboards and transmission top I found a small piece, likely a broken gear tooth, stuck in the gears. I removed the broken piece, re-assembled and it was fine. Still works today with no noticeable problems.
Click to expand...

this would be the first thing i would do, pull off the shifter tower slowly and inspect..
 
The question is, can you push the car, with neutral selected and the clutch engaged?

I think you ought to be able to.

When you push the car, Not all the gears rotate. Only the output shaft, the synchro hub and the 1st/reverse gear move. The latter is not in mesh with the rest of the gears.

So it might not just be the input shaft. There might be a chipped gear in between the input and the cluster gear, or something similar between the cluster and 2nd. The cluster gear might be seized in some way, or the input bearing may have failed.

Unless lifting the shifter tower exposes something obvious but not terminal (struggling to think if this is even likely at all), then you are really looking at a trans removal and teardown. Luckily they are relatively simple and as long as you have some degree of mechanical aptitude it can be done.

Mart.
 
Joe Shell said:
Further to my original post on this problem, the car does roll if the transmission is in neutral.
Joe
Click to expand...

Ahhhhh.......this "rolls when in neutral" is a key clue. NOW it sounds like something has jammed or locked the input gear with the cluster gear.

Unfortunately, not as easy to remove trans as post-'48. Maybe drain fluid, remove shifter assembly and do some investigating where the input meshes with the cluster. DD
 
Joe Shell said:
Further to my original post on this problem, the car does roll if the transmission is in neutral.


From what I understand, removing a transmission on a 36 is a big job. I' taken ****** out of a 1949 Ford but that's easy compared to a 36, right?

Thanks to all who have responded.

You are right, it is no easy task. First, I would remove the top plate of the transmission and try to see what the issue is. You have two choices to remove the transmission. Either remove the engine or pull the differential and driveshaft back far enough to drop the transmission. You will need a spring spreader for this. Personally I prefer the latter method. On the other hand, its winter. A good time to pull the engine and refresh everything. Good luck and keep us posted on your findings.
Click to expand...
 
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