Valve keepers cracking

[flthd31]

Hi guys, I'm currently tearing down a 59ab and ran into something I hadn't seen before. 6 of the keepers (3 piece style) are cracked and broken as seen in the pic. This engine has been reworked in the past as it has late model valves with one piece guides and adjustable lifters. Valve lash look OK before tear-down.
It has stock 3 3/16 bore, 3 3/4 stroke and all the valves came out fairly easily and look to be usable except for the bad keepers. I have bags full of keepers from other tear-downs for replacements but not sure if I should use them or go to the 2 piece keepers.
The only thing odd about the engine is that it had a truck head on one side and a car head on the other. Could the difference in compression ratio have caused this? Any other ideas?

 

[Mart]

I don't know what caused it, but I would rule out the compression ratio aspect - it just doesn't make any sense.

Mart.

 

[Binx]

flthd31, How long are the springs? My guess is older springs were used (too long by the number of coils), bound up, blew the top of the upper retainers out then someone couldn't tell what happened so they extended the lifters to reset the lash. My guess.

Lonnie

 

[Craig CT]

Hi flthd31; It sounds like someone else built the motor. My first guess would be the builder if it wasn't you. Good luck, Craig.

 

[flthd31]

flthd31, How long are the springs? My guess is older springs were used (too long by the number of coils), bound up, blew the top of the upper retainers out then someone couldn't tell what happened so they extended the lifters to reset the lash. My guess.

Lonnie

Here is a pic of some springs. The ones on the right are from a 49 Merc and are the same length and style exactly like the ones I removed from the 59ab.
The ones on the left are from an 8ba ford (not sure of the year). I no longer have the keepers from the Merc valves to compare to (wish I did).

I acquired this engine "as is" to go in my current project knowing it would need a rebuild. It turned over easily with a small 3/8 drive socket on the crank bolt. With intake off, all the valves worked OK and nothing was the least bit stuck. Cylinders show a fair amount of wear (definitely needs bored)
Springs were not binding.

 

[Mac VP]

Not sure but it appears that you had the "rotating type" valves in that motor. These were the 1951-53 type and would have had the shorter spring along with the 2 piece valve retainers as shown in your picture. I am attaching a pic link for comparison purposes.

The rotating type valve had a slightly different stem....the keeper groove is in a different location by about .005". Plus, as I stated, the spring is a shorter length. The 39-50 springs were about 2.40/2.48" long and would NOT be used with the rotating type valves. The 51-53 springs were 2.20" long and would ONLY be used with the rotating type valves.

I'm guessing that in the rebuild, the wrong springs were used with the setup you have. I would also check the valves to see which ones you have. Measure from the flat face of the valve head to the first edge of the keeper groove. The 8BA valve (49-50) was 4.49" to the groove. The 1BA valve was 4.54". Just make sure all your valve parts are matched correctly before you put it back together.

 

[DICK SPADARO]

Something doesn't look correct. My experience with valve retainer failure has been attributed to coil bind of the valve spring. Properly installed units will have only spring pressure to hold them in position and that is not enough to damage a retainer. What I think you have is a mis match of parts. There are two different springs used between early 32-50 and later version 51-53 8BA engines and the spring must match the valve. The early retainer is used with the 32-50 early springs 10 wrap and the later two part retainer is used with the 51-53 later spring 9 wrap and valve.

If you determine that you have had the wrong parts you should check your cam shaft for excessive wear or galling on the lobe.

Mac was typing while I was comparing parts. It appears you have a 10 wrap spring on a 9 wrap keeper and that is your issue.

 

[Ronnie]

Coil bind.

R

 

[Dave72dt]

The adjustable lifters may indicate a higher lift cam than factory which would only worsen a coil bind problem.

 

[HP Hunter]

Could someone clear up the years, I have catalogs showing 1952 and 1953 with the two piece tops. Than show the 1946 to 1951 with the single tops??

Harry P Hunter

 

[flthd31]

Mac and Dick...looks like you guys are on the right track
My valves measure 4.54" measured the way Mac mentioned and the springs are 2.45" - 10 wrap.
So am I correct in concluding that I have a rotating valve with the right keepers and the wrong spring?

Note:
All lifters look perfect on top but are slightly but evenly worn on the bottom.
They are a nice set of hollow adjustables and I will be getting them resurfaced.
The cam (stock 21A) is perfect with no galling or noticeable wear.

 

[Junknshit]

Unknowing is why I ask. In the first pic flthd31 posted with the assembled valve standing there, is that correct assembly of the split lock. Should the split locks be standing out that far?

 

[Russ/40]

Just by looking at the assembled valve in your initial post photo, I can see that you have the wrong springs. Coil bind for sure.

 

[Binx]

Junknshit, that pic shows the 51-53 rotator retainer. A cone inside of a cone if you will. The split keepers are inside the outer cone.

Lonnie

 

[Junknshit]

Thank you, Lonnie, I appreciate it much.

Now that I look close I can see what I missed (didn't know) Thanks again.

 

[Mac VP]

Flthd31.....you've got it correct. Just order the correct springs and replace the damaged retainers and you should have the correct mix of parts. I assume you checked ALL your valves to make sure you dont have a mixture of valves.