Using 27 frame for a 1911 project?

[Anvil Mountain]

I have a very nice 1927 frame I'm considering using for a recreation of a 1911 T. Without going into originality issues I would like to ask if I am asking for problems when installing mechanical items. Is a 1927 frame the same basic dimension as an early one? Thank you everyone for your time and thoughts.

 

[jackdaron]

It is basically the same except for the mounting holes for darn near everything. I would suggest you trade it for an earlier frame.

 

[tmodelman]

Jack's correct. Get an earlier frame. The Improved car frame is way different, both cross members won't fit any early fender brackets, body brackets wrong, dash brackets wrong, running board brackets wrong....

Did a faux '09-'10 frame using a mid '20's frame, that was difficult enough!

 

[Anvil Mountain]

I thought as much. However I should give a little more background on what we are doing. We are re-creating a 1911 narrow gauge railcar. Since the wheelbase on this railcar was changed from the standard car to a 5'-4" wheel base the rear cross member needs to be cut out and moved forward 18", fabricate front spring mounts parallel to the frame approximately 12” back from the front cross member, brake hangers for flanged wheels, plenty of fabrication/modifications. The only items from the 1911 will be the front body elements (radiator, hood, wood firewall, etc. – no fenders or running boards). The entire body was/is custom made. We have a rebuilt 1925 motor and a ruckstell rear end to be narrowed. All this being said, I’m still hoping that the 27 frame will work for us and not be too much of a frustration. I have access to a decent late teen’s frame, but the 27 frame I have is literally perfect (even has all its original paint).

 

[tmodelman]

That is indeed a horse of another color!

The nice thing with the Improved car frame is that it is made of heavier gage steel, just right for your project. Since you are doing so much change, go for it. You will need to cut away the front fender mounts if these show on the nose of your '1911' as that is the main cosmetic giveaway of the late frame. The rear cross member is much longer, that may benefit your body build anyway.

Here is a link to drawing of the early frame you are replicating.

http://www.funprojects.com/pdf/FPIframe.pdf

And pic is of the 1927 frame you have drawing.

 

[Anvil Mountain]

Thank you for the early frame drawing - that will prove most useful. I’ll go ahead with the 27 frame, and cross reference it with the early frame drawing and original parts I have.
The rear cross member will be cut off this weekend and welded in its new location. Since the original railcar (long gone) was built out of a 1911, I will keep a similar detail with the rear cross member fitting between the rails only (no wings). I hope to have all the frame modifications done by the end of the month.
My real challenge is grafting the rare original 20” Fairbanks Morse 1910 wheels I have to "T" hubs (rear only).
I've attached a photo of what we are recreating. I have all the engineering drawings completed and most of the key parts acquired, now the fun part - building/fabricating it.

 

[tmodelman]

Thanks for the photo of the Model T rail car....neat What a fun project...

Should work out well,, all the brass parts of a T, I note no steering wheel on the column, that is correct since the rail car is on tracks! But looks kinda like its missing its wheel and lonely.

The column is needed for spark and throttle control. but wondering if you might see fit to add a 'valve' knob or round wheel type hose bib knob to the end of the steering shaft?

Would look 'locomotive' like a steam valve control knob, dress the empty end of the steering column!

 

[Anvil Mountain]

I feel the same about the steering column not looking quite right without a wheel; however I'm trying to stay faithful to the prototype. My main concern about the steering column is if the railcar stops suddenly I might get impaled.
Nice Porter loco photo.

 

[tmodelman]

Couple more pics on how the early frame rail ends look, so you can replicate. The tough part is the Improved car frame rear cross member has rolled over edge flange, so that will need some work to get it 'boxed' like the early frames.

And.....my concern too, looking at the stem of the steering shaft right in your gut, or climbing in or out hanging up on clothes and someone slips, tracks below....so maybe for sake of looks, a period knob from a 1909 locomotive could be placed there, a nice hand grasp to pull yourself into the seat, and to steady your palms as you move the throttle and spark levers!

 

[tmodelman]

Couple more pictures of T rail cars, note these have steering wheels atop the steering column, even if useless for steering, they make a nice hand hold. And the early brass era steering wheels on the T use brass spiders, and painted 15" black wood rims....would be beautiful on your rail car.

 

[Anvil Mountain]

Thanks for the photos - especially the views of the rear cross member.
I've seen the T railcar(s) at the Sierra Railway Museum in Jamestown, CA - they did a nice job on those. I took quite a few photos when I visited them this past summer.
I've also been talking to Jeff at the Hawaii Railroad Museum about the TT railtruck - they are also recreating that very railtruck/bus. In fact Jeff just received the 1919 TT chassis a few weeks ago. He’s going to have fun narrowing the Ruckstell rear end with Hassler shocks to boot – the original one had them so it can be done but will be tight space wise.
Would you happen to have an exact dimension from the front cross member to the two holes that bolt the cast firewall brackets to the frame – those would be very much appreciated.

 

[yachtsmanbill]

Ive been following your railcar thred and been meaning to forward you some info. The attached contact stuff is from a member here that I bought some stuff from. Where he lives in Wisconsin is surrounded by cranberry farms and he has whats left of a model T narrow guage rail car with a hoist of some type on the back. I seem to recall he also has a set of rail wheels and hubs as well. It may be worth your while to contact him. Tell him I sent you. I bought a white painted model A rear axle converted into a trailer last summer. He should remember me. Bill

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• About arps corporation Location City Point, Wisconsin Occupation Self employed Interests Collector of stuff Biography Pretty much like the show... Hoarders, American Pickers, and American Restoration.

 

[fordman67]

awesome project! cant wait to see the end product.Are you building for your self ?Or museum or? just curious,cudos on a great project!

 

[tmodelman]

"Would you happen to have an exact dimension from the front cross member to the two holes that bolt the cast firewall brackets to the frame – those would be very much appreciated. "

Measured from center of ea hole to center of other hole....radiator stud hole to first hole of cast firewall bracket to frame mount is 24 1/2"

Or, from front of frame to first hole of the cast firewall bracket to frame mount is 25 3/4".

 

[Anvil Mountain]

Thank you for the dimensions - they will help immensely. Our work session this weekend was a success. We were able to weld up all the various holes not related to our needs, remove the rear cross member, finish fabrication/modifications to our late teens rear cross member needing to be fitted between the frame rails, and most importantly start work on the RR wheels. All and all the railcar is moving along nicely.
FYI, this project is of my own doing, but has ties to the San Juan County Historical Society.

 

[Roadster62]

Lots of luck, you must have a lot of free time.

I have a very nice 1927 frame I'm considering using for a recreation of a 1911 T. Without going into originality issues I would like to ask if I am asking for problems when installing mechanical items. Is a 1927 frame the same basic dimension as an early one? Thank you everyone for your time and thoughts.

 

[Willie in Houston]

Sounds like a fun project, but I have one question. Do you have a place to drive the car or is it for show only??

 

[yachtsmanbill]

I dont know about Colorado, but theres like 3000 miles of abandoned Canadian National rails that are used by "campers" that run motorized bicycles with a 3rd wheel outrigger. Ride the rails for 100 miles then campout in the mountains... like WAYYYY out! Theres probably a 20 mile run here thats abandoned. If you come to a road crossing you may need to coax the flivver across the asphalt and back onto the rails. ws

 

[Anvil Mountain]

Good questions: there are several narrow gauge (3’) tourist railroads in Colorado that allow historic railcars during "rail fests" (special events for nuts like myself that enjoy steam railroading), NORCOA sanctioned runs (North America Rail Car Operators Association), and the Colorado Railroad Museum has a "Goose Fest" where all the remaining Galloping Geese from the Rio Grande Southern Railroad gather once a year to run (last year we had all but one - not to mention my railcar). They call them Galloping Geese because they waddled down the track and had a unique sounding horn - like a goose. There were a total of 7 RGS geese. One other was also recreated from a 1930 Buick, the others were built from 20’s Pierce Arrows. My railcar is not really considered one of the Geese since it was used for rail inspection and not freight/passengers, but is from the same railroad. Do a Google search on RGS Galloping Geese, I’m sure you will find it very interesting.