Update on overheating problem!!!

Paul from Maine said:
After removing the head and cleaning out about enough rust from the water jackets to fill an 8 oz coffee cup, backflushing a similar amount of rust out out of the radiator and shaking huge pieces of rust out of the head, I still was running in the 190 degree range. I spent hours working on the radiator with everything from Drano to Evaporust. This was after I had a radiator shop "boil" it out. 190 was too high for me, so I finally sprung the $600 for a new radiator from Brattons. I ordered it Monday pm from Tam's and Tuesday night I had it installed. Couldn't get the temp above 135 no matter what I did. Had to put a 165 degree thermostat in the upper hose just to warm up the engine. Wished I had sprung the $600 two months earlier. Would have saved me days of wasted effort. Buy a new radiator from BRATTONS. It even has hood rests!
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did you get it from joe at tams or brattons ?
 
I went and got a infrared thermometer today and tested the radiator I did cut back some on the fuel in case I was running it a bit to rich I stayed close to home and drove about 1 mile total and back to the house and checked temps were in the alright range I drove back and forth a mile at a time and would stop with motor running it would read from 125 at the bottom to 175 at top but it would be all over the place hot and cold spots at different sections on the radiator so after all was said and done after about 6 or 7 trips (I lost count) the top hose at the radiator was around 205 and the bottom hose was at 165 to 170 and the rest of the radiator was just all over the place so it tells me that it is not cooling sufficiently over the entire surface of the radiator also it did not overheat but as the temp tells it was mighty close when I overheated before I was at a constant pull not stopping so I think that the radiator just could not cool it fast enough for the cold and hot spots tell me I have some stopped up places in the radiator so the radiator shop wants 125.00 to rod out with no guarantee it would be any better plus I have already spent 100.00 on it to patch some holes and fix neck and flush out at the same shop so I am looking at 225.00 plus tax and my gas back and forth and my time and still have a "OLD FIXED UP RADIATOR" so no more money on it just going to buy a new Brassworks I guess, thanks for all the help and suggestions guys I think that a new radiator will fix my overheating problems, Lord I hope so, Robert DeBord
 
Just my guess. head gasket leaking!
Put a short piece of hose on the top of the overflow tube bend the tube back and put the hose under the edge of the rad neck. Next i would cut down the fins on the waterpump.
too much water being pumped to the rad and
being forced down the overflow tube.
these are some of the fixes i've used before.
Also invest in the laser temp tool . Check every tube in the rad after driving till it over heats . Then check the hoses and head with the temp tool
 
DeBordEngineMan said:
I went and got a infrared thermometer today and tested the radiator I did cut back some on the fuel in case I was running it a bit to rich I stayed close to home and drove about 1 mile total and back to the house and checked temps were in the alright range I drove back and forth a mile at a time and would stop with motor running it would read from 125 at the bottom to 175 at top but it would be all over the place hot and cold spots at different sections on the radiator so after all was said and done after about 6 or 7 trips (I lost count) the top hose at the radiator was around 205 and the bottom hose was at 165 to 170 and the rest of the radiator was just all over the place so it tells me that it is not cooling sufficiently over the entire surface of the radiator also it did not overheat but as the temp tells it was mighty close when I overheated before I was at a constant pull not stopping so I think that the radiator just could not cool it fast enough for the cold and hot spots tell me I have some stopped up places in the radiator so the radiator shop wants 125.00 to rod out with no guarantee it would be any better plus I have already spent 100.00 on it to patch some holes and fix neck and flush out at the same shop so I am looking at 225.00 plus tax and my gas back and forth and my time and still have a "OLD FIXED UP RADIATOR" so no more money on it just going to buy a new Brassworks I guess, thanks for all the help and suggestions guys I think that a new radiator will fix my overheating problems, Lord I hope so, Robert DeBord
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I would put that money towards a new radiator or re-core the one you have. Rodding an old radiator will often result in a clean radiator that still does not cool well because the core is NG. The bond between the fins and the tubes is bad and no amount of cleaning will fix it.

Even if you find a problem with the engine, you still need a good radiator.

Again, Just my poinion.

Chris
 
Robert, I dont to pretend to know what our fellow fordbarners know, they have much more experience than me, but I have been following your heat problems since the start because I had the same exact problem. From every thing I read and learned timing and carbaration has an effect on the tempeture, BUT, to a lessser degree than the actual cooling system. I had the same problem, drive it 5 miles and I got rusty water blowing all over the windshield. Overheating. This is what I did. I felt the radiatior when it was hot, half the rad was hot the other half was cold. That tells me the rad isn't circulating right. I dont want to spend the money on a NEW rad anymore than you do but I did. My thinking is this, if I take it to a rad shop and they rod it, its so old it will probably fall apart and I'll still have to pay them for whatever they do and I still have the same problem. To make a long story short, it made sense to me to go to Snyders and just BITE THE BULLET and buy a heavy duty rad and get it over with. I know its expensive but I'll bet you right now, thats not the last thing you'll be spending money on while your getting that A ready to enjoy. Since I replaced the rad, (your going to love this) now it runs to cold. I cant even get it to 160 on a 90 degree day. Now I got to put a thermostat in it. Don't ya just love it. Just trying to help. that my 2 cents. And one more thing I did that Les Andrews test to with timing the water draining out of the rad and my old rad ran out fast to. Bottom line, new rad, no more problem, just a little lighter in the wallet. Joe








fordbarners know
 
Have you had the head off? I tried all the above except a new radiator. Turns out the block is cracked at #2, and #3 exhaust valves and the cracks go half way down the cylinder wall. Owner said it always had a problem keeping water in the radiator. It wouldn't go more than 6-8 miles between water stops. Also you can crack the block adding fresh water unless you cool the block first. You may dig deeper before you invest the $600. for a new brass works. Bob
 
Brentwood Bob I have never had the head off I guess I really need to and make sure nothing else is going on, but I do feel that the radiator is bad anyway so I am thinking about just biting the bullet and buying a new one anyway. I am just afraid that when I pull the head that I am going to break a stud bolt off or worse and I really don't have the knowledge or tools to fix so I am a little reluctant to remove head. But I know that I will have to at some point for some reason. Thanks Robert
 
Brentwood Bob, What is a puzzle to me is after reading your post about the cracks in your block that you never saw a lot of steam comming out the tail pipe. May be for some reason As are different but any car I ever had with a blown head gasket or a crack that let water in the combustion chamber ran terrible and would blow a lot of steam out the exaust. Just my thoughts.
 
Pa Joe said:
Brentwood Bob, What is a puzzle to me is after reading your post about the cracks in your block that you never saw a lot of steam comming out the tail pipe. May be for some reason As are different but any car I ever had with a blown head gasket or a crack that let water in the combustion chamber ran terrible and would blow a lot of steam out the exaust. Just my thoughts.
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I would have to agree. Any crack that let that much water out would make the tail pipe drip constantly and rust between drives even if overnight. I have blocks that were traded in on rebuilds that are cracked pretty bad but never leaked that bad.
 
Exhaust gases can get into the cooling system without showing any other signs of a "blown" gasket or cracks in the block. In other words the engine can run well and there not be any coolant in the cylinders. The exhaust gases can find their way from the combustion chamber into the cooling system which does 2 things - displaces the coolant(forces it out the overflow) AND exhaust gases don't cool very well.
So check for exhaust gases in the radiator: You'll need a helper for this so one can run the car and the other can look in the radiator. The driver "loads up" the engine by setting the e-brake, putting the car in high gear, letting out the clutch slowing while keeping the engine running so it doesn't stall - kinda like trying to run over a curb. You don't want to overpower the e-brake and run over your helper and you don't want to stall the engine - just make it work hard. Now look in the radiator - are there exhaust gases coming out the neck? If so, pull the head. If not, change the radiator.
Simple test and no expense. If you pull the head look veeerry carefully for cracks - they're not always obvious. I've been down this road several times with other people's cars and a new head gasket solved every one of them.
 
The roadster over-heated a couple of times this summer in slow, hot parades. My tired, old original radiator with 80 years worth of accumulated tube and fin damage, detached fins. clogged tubes, etc. just wasn't worth $300-$400 worth of cleaning and repairs. And I'd still have the risk of a failure happening again in a non-repaired area.

I checked out the various options at Brass Works and called and chatted with "Lee". He graciously answered all my technical questions and I ended up buying the 1931 Model A type with 6 fins per inch and fin dimpling. Lee even offered to match the key mounting dimensions off my orig. radiator when I FAX'd him a sketch.

That's professionalism and real customer service! - rare these days.

I just finished installing the new radiator. Beautiful! What an example of detailed craftsmanship, build/material quality, finish, etc. My winged Moto-Meter even fit perfectly in the filler neck. The radiator looks so GOOD in the fully-reassembled car!

I did not re-install the 160 deg. thermostat so I will have lots of cooling margin and never have to face the nasty experience and potential engine-damaging effects of over-heating again.

Extended test drive tomorrow.

Go new! Go Brass Works! Well worth the investment if you can manage it.

Earle
 
Larry Seemann said:
Exhaust gases can get into the cooling system without showing any other signs of a "blown" gasket or cracks in the block. In other words the engine can run well and there not be any coolant in the cylinders. The exhaust gases can find their way from the combustion chamber into the cooling system which does 2 things - displaces the coolant(forces it out the overflow) AND exhaust gases don't cool very well.
So check for exhaust gases in the radiator: You'll need a helper for this so one can run the car and the other can look in the radiator. The driver "loads up" the engine by setting the e-brake, putting the car in high gear, letting out the clutch slowing while keeping the engine running so it doesn't stall - kinda like trying to run over a curb. You don't want to overpower the e-brake and run over your helper and you don't want to stall the engine - just make it work hard. Now look in the radiator - are there exhaust gases coming out the neck? If so, pull the head. If not, change the radiator.
Simple test and no expense. If you pull the head look veeerry carefully for cracks - they're not always obvious. I've been down this road several times with other people's cars and a new head gasket solved every one of them.
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what do the exhaust gasses look like?
 
From memory, I think I would recognize it if I saw it again.

He may very well need a new radiator but...

I think I would probably pull the head and put a head gasket on it before I spent the money on a new radiator. I would sure feel stupid if I spent the money on a radiator and still had an overheating engine because of a bad head gasket.
 
yea i would at least stick an emissions probe at the radiator and do a sniff test to be sure. he could very easily have 2 problems a cracked head or head gasket from all the running hot from a restricted radiator..
 
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I did fail to mention that I did all of the other diagnostics - comp. test, oil and exhaust inspections, water jacket cleaning & flushing, blocked-thermostat check, etc. before I finally bit the bullet for a costly new radiator.

When I eliminated all other causes of overheating but the radiator, I decided to fix this problem once and permanantly and wast no time and money hoping I could resuscitate my old one. A big ding to the wallet for doing it right and buying a lot of good old-fashioned peace-of mind. (kinda like the way it is in this old car restoration hobby we signed on to!)

Someone asked earlier - "Is this a rich man's hobby?" - no, it's a hobby that sometimes makes rich men poor....

Yes, be darn sure it's the radiator before buying a new one!
 
OK guys did a lot of thinking today what could be wrong I talked to Brent Terry today and his thoughts was it was not my radiator so he gave me some suggestions to try and check so back to the start. Started with the timing I went by Marco Tahtaras's web page and I had the car out of time as me and Brent talked about today and I said that I thought that I had set the time wrong and I had, also Brent thought that I may be running fuel to lean. Well set timing and filled radiator up with plain water to just about level actually it was over the baffle just a bit, drove the car richer on the fuel and started to drive it up and down road about 1 mile at a time close to the house just in case. I bought a infrared thermometer and I would stop back in my driveway after each mile trip leave the car running and check temp. and I done this for 4 trips and the top hose and I would check the actual hose next to the top tank was a constant temp. of around 165 to 170 and the bottom hose temp was 135 to 140 with the front of the radiator reading just below the Ford emblem was around 100 to 110 which was in front of the fan and it went up to around 150 on the sides and around 130ish at the bottom so I drove the same route that I had taken on previous trips that it overheated and it ran a constant 165 to 170 or close to that at different times in the drive the only time that it got hot was a long gradual grade of about 1 mile and at the top I had a little water come out of the overflow tube and just a small sprinkle on the windshield I stopped at the top of hill and the upper hose reading was jumping all around 211 and I opened the radiator cap and it was steaming a little but not boiling like before on other trips, so I thought I better get home it was overheating but as soon as I started again within maybe 100 yards it cooled down and I drove on and checked again down the road a piece and it was back down to the same readings of top 165 to 170 and bottom 135 to 140 so I drove some more never got any hotter, other than that long pull and water loss was very minimal checked when I got back home and it was still just touching the baffle so in the end I drove about 45 minutes to 1 hour with only the one time she got hot and maybe that is normal because I have never drove a Model A before so don't really know how they act on hills? I am going to drive it some more tomorrow and test some more and see how it go's I do know that the car ran better had more zip after setting time and opening up fuel more, so guys after this extra long post does this sound like all these temperature readings are in the safe normal zone and what about the long climb and getting hot for a few minutes was that "normal" it seems to me that it is cooling "alright" hope to hear from some of you, also one more small problem that I will address in another post to keep things apart, thanks Robert DeBord
 
Sounds like you just about got her fixed. The temps are correct for what you are driving and the high temp is about right for a hill. The engine is working harder up hills so it will produce more heat and even a good radiator will not get rid of it all. The only thing I can suggest is to drive it and monitor it for a while and don't worry about a little coolant loss as long as it is only taking a quart or so to get it back to full, this is it's comfort level. If it looses more than that on long runs, you might want to install a thermostat to slow down the flow so it has more time to cool in the radiator.

I was at Brent's yesterday when he was helping you and we both decided you might have the timing off. Next time we talk I'll explain why I suspected this and how to overcome the urge to get it wrong. I set the timing on LOTS of engines so I probably could do it blindfolded, never missed yet.
 
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Thanks for the information James I had been setting time the way a guy at work had showed me and not the way all the Model A books had said to do I was setting the points to open on a lobe and not the way it should be so I am going to drive some more this afternoon we I get off work, thanks Robert DeBord
 
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