Trying to get this started, wiring problems (picture heavy)

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PhoenixFear

Senior Member
I'm trying to get this '33 pickup running, however as I'd assume it won't crank over. I'm not too much of an expert on wiring, but I took pictures. I am assuming the starter isn't getting any juice. The starter only appears to have one big wire going to it, which ends up at a solenoid I believe.
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In this photo, the raggedy looking wire goes to the starter, the reddish wire is grounded to the transmission, and the other wire connected to the left side of the solenoid is the battery positive. I pulled what I believe to be a big 12V battery out of the truck for a core, so I was assuming it is converted... but I could be wrong.
Picture099.jpg

Test light shows battery wire is powered, two small red wires in middle powered.
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No power to this side of the solenoid. I would assume it only gets powered when the key is turned all the way forward for starting, then shuts off, however even when I turn the key, the starter doesn't sound like it cranks so I assume it isn't getting power at all.
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Here is the firewall wiring. The box has a bat terminal, and two others which I don't think power up. Perhaps those are for gauges? I didn't connect the gauge wires, just want to test the engine so I wanted to keep it simple.
Picture102.jpg

This is the back of the ignition switch. This is the part I am really confused over. Before I pulled it apart, I took notes on where each wire goes... and of course, I lost the notes. The blue wire not connected I believe goes to a push button on the dash... it doesn't work even when powered. There are a total of 5 wires here: one red, one blue, two black, and one yellow. Red goes to the BAT side of the fuse block, black goes out to the fuse block as well, yellow I think is a gauge.
Red wire is the BAT side of the switch, yellow is going to the ACC side (probably not correctly wired) and the black one goes out to the fuse box I believe, which is wired to the IGN side. The middle post not used says ST... I am thinking starter, however there is no power to that post in any position of the key. ACC is always on, even when the key is off, BAT is only on when key is turned left or right (not when in the center) and IGN is I believe only on when key is turned right.
My questions are...
Obviously I didn't wire this correctly, and having not known if this truck was wired right in the first place, what would be the next step?
Should I get a wiring harness for this truck before or after I work out the bugs?
What harness would be an easy one to use while still not breaking the bank? Thanks.
 
Is there juice to the key? When the key is in the start position is there juice from the key to the solenoid? Does the solenoid work? Is there juice from the battery to the solenoid? Does the starter work? This is how I would look at this problem. Buy any wiring harness meant for your rig, It will be a vast improvement.
 
Looks converted, the white deal is a 6 volt resistor, the wire of that should go to the coil.

Ignition switch. On the center post is there an "S" for start? and one should be labeled battery. Battery in / start to solenoid.

Since it's all apart might as well rewire it.
 
The red wire connected to the BAT terminal of the key is powered. The battery has juice to the solenoid, and from the solenoid to the fuse box and then from the box to the key. I'm assuming that since there is only one wire to the starter, I could connect a wire from the battery to the starter to see if it cranks?
 
Tinker said:
Looks converted, the white deal is a 6 volt resistor, the wire of that should go to the coil.

Ignition switch. On the center post is there an "S" for start? and one should be labeled battery. Battery in / start to solenoid.

Since it's all apart might as well rewire it.
Click to expand...
Yes, the center post says ST. However it never gets juice no matter where the key is. I even turned the key fully forward and it never powered, in fact the whole switch shuts power off the other posts.
 
Simple diagram to get you started.
 

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PhoenixFear said:
I'm assuming that since there is only one wire to the starter, I could connect a wire from the battery to the starter to see if it cranks?
Click to expand...

Yea you could touch the terminal on the starter with a wire/cable from the battery. Make sure it out of gear ;).

Starter is grounded to the engine/trans. Grounds are often overlooked.
 
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I tried taking the ragged starter cable off and hooked it to the battery, it didn't do anything. Perhaps the cable needs to be changed, it is bare in a few spots.
 
Well, I will agree with that. Clean all connects as well. But the starter should have cranked a little. That is, if the battery is good and the engine can be turned over by hand.
 
Doesn't look like anything, there is only that one wire connected it looks like. I tried using booster cables in place of the starter cable, still nothing.
 
Phoenix, if I lived closer I'd come over and help you out.

Take your time and one thing at a time.

I would read some books on your truck. It's a great truck.

PM me with your phone number, if you like, and I'll try and help. I'm far from an expert but I've totally rewired my 38 and 28. Maybe I can help you through it.
 
You might want to start by removing the wires from the ign switch. I think you've got some in the wrong places to start with. The BAT terminal on the switch should be powered at all times. Find the wire that has power in it and place on that terminal. Find the wire that goes to that white block on the firewall ( resistor) Fasten that wire to the IGN post on the ign switch. Should be a single small wire on a small post on the solenoid with the letter S. That wire should go to the ST terminal on the IGN switch. Remove any other small wires on the solenoid for now. You don't need them to get the motor to turn over. Any other wires for the key switch will be attached to the ACC post. Turning the key to start should now activate the solenoid which should make the starter work if it is good and the motor isn't locked up.
 
A lot of the older Fords were push button start and a lot of hot rods were set up that way back in the day. You have a later solenoid that could be used with a key twist to start if your key switch is set up for twist to start. With the old push button set ups it just applied a ground path to the single small terminal type solenoids which had an internal connection to the big battery terminal. The ones with two small terminals can be set up either way. X1 terminal to ground and X2 terminal to the part of the key switch that is hot when twisted to that position. You should hear an audible click when you hot wire the solenoid to the two small X1 & X2 terminals, with one to ground and one to power. If no click, you have a bad solenoid.

A good volt/ohm or multi-meter would help you out better since you don't have to apply power to one side of a wire to get a test light to work on the other end. You can get by with a test light but it takes more work to find problematic connections..

If you apply power from a battery to the starter terminal directly and a ground path from the battery to the frame, it should turn over. If the starter won't turn with direct connections, it will need to be repaired or replaced.

Kerby
 
Phoenix, I think you need to get someone over there asap that has a little auto electrical experience before you start a fire. From your description here, it sounds like you could use some "hands-on" help.

As a quick test, if you hook a cable from the negative terminal on the battery to the engine block (or frame, if the engine has a ground strap that goes to the frame) and touch a cable from the battery positive to the starter terminal the engine should crank. Or at least try to... If it doesn't, you have a dead battery or a REALLY dead starter. If you don't have a complete circuit (ie ground cable from the block to the negative battery terminal) no current will flow and the starter will not crank.

Stock early ford starting systems are 6v positive ground, but it looks like this car is already converted to 12v components with a key-start ignition switch.

The black box on the firewall is the voltage regulator.

The solenoid is basically a switch that can handle high current draw of the starter. Your ignition switch can't handle that so it "triggers" the solenoid with a low current "signal" of sorts. When you turn the key to "start" position, it gives the S terminal on the solenoid 12v and closes the main contacts of the solenoid, allowing 12v to the starter motor through large gauge cables directly from the battery. The solenoid will also have an I terminal on it, this supplies 12v to the ignition coil ONLY WHEN THE ENGINE IS CRANKING for easier starting. Once the engine fires up and you relase the key to the "run" position, there should not be any voltage at that terminal. Your coil will then get a reduced voltage from your IGN terminal on the ignition switch by way of the ballast resistor (also mounted on your firewall there).

Hope this helps.
 
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Yeah I'll give it some more tests tomorrow. Like I said, I directly connected the battery positive to the starter, with both using the original wire on the starter and a set of jumper cables, I didn't even hear a click.
The main grounds I see are battery to transmission, motor to the body/frame mounting area, and I believe that is it. I know I'll want another wire going from the motor to the firewall from what I've read, having three main grounds.
I know the battery should be fine, it is a newer 12V battery I bought for a car less than a year ago that I didn't end up needing. I may take the starter off and see the condition of it. The truck has been sitting for about 40 years or so, I don't expect much right now.
 
The wire that is your engine ground looks like the end is rusty, many of that style wires had steel terminal ends that got rusty and made bad connections.

When you have a wire terminal attached to a threaded stud the connection goes from the terminal through the washer to the side of the nut then through the threads to the stud---if you have rusty nuts and washers you have a bad connection even if the terminals are new --

Many people worry about the power wires and forget the grounds.

If you want to tackle your wiring project you should go to the library, or book store and look at some books, although there are some very good posts already for you to study.

It would probably be easier for you to start over than to fix the old wiring you have (eliminates corrosion inside badly crimped terminals)
 
with transmission in neutral, try jumping the starter with the wire from the negative post of your battery first....positive wire from battery to head bolt....if nothing spins, reverse polarity with pos. wire to starter and neg. wire to head bolt....should spin either way, i think....otherwise, starter could be frozen....does engine turn with wrench on crank bolt, or by pushing with trans. in gear??...should try cranking the engine with spark plugs out...if stated before, i apologize....good luck....Mike
 
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