Transmission Countershaft and Bearings Question

[Oldcarbearings]

BEWARE of Kobe brand sold in a black&orange or red box they're made in china,
As is most Ford spare parts vendors selling B7121 as NONE are made in USA anymore try to find either: O.E.M/ORIGINAL FORD OR HYATT/RBC/BOWER.

 

[19Fordy]

Apparently there's a " cartridge" type bearing bearing replacement that Macs sells,
What you could do/is a inner race that sits on the shaft&the B7121 sits on the inner race/sleeve therefore eliminating surface wear, or use machine needle roller cage that has a built in inner race/sleeve these are called NU type needle roller cages.

Oldcarbearings: I looked for that bearing that Mac's sells and couldn't find it.
Can you post the source for that bearing you mentioned?
Does it look like this:
https://www.skf.com/group/products/...ler-bearings/drawn-cup-needle-roller-bearings
To press fit into a Ford cluster gear bore it would have to have an OD of at least 1.127in.
It also must have an ID of .750 in. or this:
https://www.radwell.com/Shop?source...erm=4580290571195089&utm_content=SC - Remnant
Length is also critical so as to match OEM FORD bearing lengths.

 

[cadillac512]

Cadillac512: I just measured the ID of my cluster that fits a 1941 Ford and it's 1.124 in. That is a lot larger than the 1 in. od of the Koyo B 1212 bearing How were you able to make that Koyo bearing fit securely as it's OD is too small for a press fit?

My answer is...I don't know what the heck is going on. I replaced the bad cluster and other gears with a complete set from a friend, changing from the 15/29 to a16/28 set and those bearings are the part numbers I wrote in my notes. Hmm....I need to check further.



Terry

 

[Tim Ayers]

Oldcarbearings: I looked for that bearing that Mac's sells and couldn't find it.
Can you post the source for that bearing you mentioned?
Does it look like this:
https://www.skf.com/group/products/...ler-bearings/drawn-cup-needle-roller-bearings
To press fit into a Ford cluster gear bore it would have to have an OD of at least 1.127in.
It also must have an ID of .750 in. or this:
https://www.radwell.com/Shop?source...erm=4580290571195089&utm_content=SC - Remnant
Length is also critical so as to match OEM FORD bearing lengths.

I am no engineer, but I don't see the advantage of converting the cluster to press fit bearings in this situation. What would be the advantage to this?

 

[19Fordy]

Like Tim said, "I am no engineer, but I don't see the advantage of converting the cluster to press fit bearings in this situation. What would be the advantage to this?"

I guess the only advantage is that you might be able to find "press fit bearings" that are of better quality than the China reproductions and work well.

It would be great if someone would actually post the part number of the press fit bearing that actually works as well as the OEM Ford bearing.

Here is the website of Consolidated Bearings where you can type in the bearing specs you need and search for a suitable needle bearing. I wonder if the inner sleeve needed comes with the bearing?
https://consbrgs.com/catalog/search-products/

Can someone explain how you can press this type bearing into a bore and not deform the outer cage? I think the install is similar to this procedure using an inner sleeve.
https://www.bing.com/videos/rivervi...0F47A94076DCA74E3FD20F47A94076DCA74&FORM=VIRE

 

[Will Kimble]

NOS or good used bearings are perfectly adequate. Check condition of rollers, check for racking and check for hardened end plates.

If the caged rollers give you the heebie jeebies then source an 8A-7113 small bore cluster gear and use the loose needles.

On the other hand, I am interested in any application of modern bearings to these old transmissions. Keep the ideas coming.

 

[GB SISSON]

Well.... It just so happens I am in the middle of rebuilding the transfer case for the 'foyota', my toyota landcruiser in ford clothing. The guys on the primary landcruiser forum are very particular about where 'overseas' their parts are manufactured. A lot of the parts from the early cruisers are no longer available from toyota, but the Japanese aftermarket hard parts like bearings and gears are the go to for the faithful. After reading this thread I decided I should open the box that arrived yesterday from a landcruiser supplier. All the parts are made in Japan including gaskets and seals. The (caged?) roller bearings are for a set of idler gears that ride on a 1" shaft. There is no sleeve. The kit comes with a new idler shaft as it is considered a wear item. Mine has just under 200k on it and shows about .003 of wear on one end. There was a post 3 days ago from a guy that bought a case hardened 1" shaft from McMaster Carr and had a friend machine a groove on one end and a thread into one end. So, while all this stuff is new to me, I think it's timely that maybe some alternatives to the other 'overseas' bearings and shafts may be at hand. I don't see any markings on the caged bearings, but all others in the box are of Japanese manufacture. They also look like they could be pressed in place as long as the interference wasn't to great. Of course the size would be different for our Fords. Just thinking out loud here.

 

[cadillac512]

My answer is...I don't know what the heck is going on. I replaced the bad cluster and other gears with a complete set from a friend, changing from the 15/29 to a16/28 set and those bearings are the part numbers I wrote in my notes. Hmm....I need to check further.



Terry

The 8A 7113 cluster has a 1" bore and the bearings I listed fit that cluster...that's the reason. My newer gear set (installed in the '41 case) allowed me to use the B1212 bearings.

 

[petehoovie]

Well.... It just so happens I am in the middle of rebuilding the transfer case for the 'foyota', my toyota landcruiser in ford clothing. The guys on the primary landcruiser forum are very particular about where 'overseas' their parts are manufactured. A lot of the parts from the early cruisers are no longer available from toyota, but the Japanese aftermarket hard parts like bearings and gears are the go to for the faithful. After reading this thread I decided I should open the box that arrived yesterday from a landcruiser supplier. All the parts are made in Japan including gaskets and seals. The (caged?) roller bearings are for a set of idler gears that ride on a 1" shaft. There is no sleeve. The kit comes with a new idler shaft as it is considered a wear item. Mine has just under 200k on it and shows about .003 of wear on one end. There was a post 3 days ago from a guy that bought a case hardened 1" shaft from McMaster Carr and had a friend machine a groove on one end and a thread into one end. So, while all this stuff is new to me, I think it's timely that maybe some alternatives to the other 'overseas' bearings and shafts may be at hand. I don't see any markings on the caged bearings, but all others in the box are of Japanese manufacture. They also look like they could be pressed in place as long as the interference wasn't to great. Of course the size would be different for our Fords. Just thinking out loud here.

 

[cas3]

Sliding off coarse a bit...That double gear GB has sitting next to the transfer case is the intermediate gear which runs on the caged rollers that failed for me. In my case, the gear was an NOS Willys gear, the teeth survived but the inner bearing surface was wrecked.
The solution, the rock crawler guys have come up with is you send the gear to herm the overdrive guy in WA state and he machines the gear to take a timkin bearing cup on each end , then timkin bearings sit on a shaft with a shoulder and you set the pre load like a front wheel bearing. Very strong and runs quieter, saved my original gear.

GB those Koyo bearings look well made. Carry on....

 

[19Fordy]

The 8A 7113 cluster has a 1" bore and the bearings I listed fit that cluster...that's the reason. My newer gear set (installed in the '41 case) allowed me to use the B1212 bearings.

Gosh Terry, I just remeasured the internal dia. machined bore of cluster gears 022-7113-A and 68-7113 and both are 1.125 in. and 6.59 in long.

I wonder if Henry changed his specs. somewhere along the line. I don't see 8A-7113 listed in the GREEN BIBLE. However, I did find 8A-7113-A for 1949-50 Fords on Google. Also, here:
https://www.2040-parts.com/nos-1949-1950-ford-cluster-gear-wt253-8a-8a7113-i203082/
https://cgfordparts.com/cluster-gear-49-50-pass-28-tooth-use-with-loose-rollers-8a-7113-a.html

Thanks for hanging in there with this discussion. Jim

 

[cadillac512]

That must be the gear set I got to put in my case. The cluster is the one that originally used loose rollers with no cages. That's why it's smaller ID...it's all coming back to me. You'd think I'd remember better. Geez.

 

[GB SISSON]

Seems to me the green bible only goes to 1948 models. And Skip this transfer case job is a practice run for my woodie's transmission. It's actually way easier than I thought. A little help from some landcruiser geeks on youtube.

 

[Oldcarbearings]

No it's neither of those type of bearings google "NU" needle roller bearings.

 

[Oldcarbearings]

Less wear to minimal wear on the shaft + the bearing (NU type) comes with a inner race,
So that instead of the bearing sitting on the shaft only the inner race/sleeve does therefore eliminating wear.

 

[big deuce]

I just measured the dia. of the countershaft. It's .748in. dia. along its entire length from end to end.
The reason for this this idea is twofold:

1. to increase and utilize the bearing support surface.

2. CW MOSS reports that the repro. bearings are of low quality and they won't sell them. Therefore, I was thinking using 2 good condition used Ford bearings would be a safe bet.

I have some parts in my cart from CW Moss, some are they cluster caged bearings, which ones are they selling, if they refuse the sell the "bad" ones?

 

[Bored&Stroked]

I believe the original shafts at .750 on the nose - and are very hard (heat treated). I could not find any NOS shafts, so I made my own out of hard linear shafting from Thomson. All the repop ones that I've seen are made with inferior materials, have poor surface finish and are not hard enough. They're also undersized by a thou or two - which adds slop and contributes to leaks in the front/rear of the case.

I bought the shafts with the last 2" or so of the end soft. This allowed me to add the pin-hole that is needed in the rear (using a carbide end-mill) along with a custom o-ring that I put on the shafts to help seal them. I think I purchased them through McMaster-Carr. I'm not sure what is available today, but they had them in various lengths (so I could get exactly what I needed). They were 60 rockwell in hardness

 

[Bored&Stroked]

Here are a couple of the shafts I made - these ones have "end caps" to seal the oil from leaking out. Since then I've been using o-rings (with grooves) on the ends of each shaft. I also shorten the little rod in the back and TAP the ends to seal it up.

 

[Bored&Stroked]

I went back and checked my pictures I took of when I miced some shafts. As you can see, my new shafts are spot-on, while the repop ones are .002 smaller in the OD. This causes slop in the bearings as well as additional case leakage. Also the repops are nowhere near as hard as the originals or ground with the correct finish.

Original Shaft: Non-Worn Area:



New Reproduction Shafts: .002 smaller



My New Shaft: